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Post by Beth on Aug 15, 2015 22:09:25 GMT
Could someone explain to me the difference between a carbine and a rifle?
Also why did Infantry carry a longer weapon than cavalry?
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Aug 16, 2015 0:25:43 GMT
Beth AZ would be the go to guy on this topic. Regards Dave
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colt45
First Lieutenant
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Post by colt45 on Aug 16, 2015 13:08:56 GMT
A carbine is a shortened version of the rifle. The 1873 springfield carbine, being smaller was easier for cavalry to handle. The infantry rifle version, being longer, provided better accuracy at longer ranges. the cavalry carbine fired the same 45-70 cartridge as the rifle, but with less powder. The carbine round was actually a 45-55 round. The 45 is the caliber. The -xx number denotes the amount of black powder in grains. The full 45-70 cartridge would have had a heck of a recoil if fired in the carbine, hence the lower power round for the carbine. the carbine also weighed less than the rifle version.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 16, 2015 13:30:36 GMT
Armies as late as ww2 utilised carbines, rifles were considered infantry weapons and carbines were used by cavalry, engineers and artillery crews, as far as I know only Britain and Germany issued a standard rifle to all units, the US Army of course used the M1 and M2 carbine as a light weapon for their crew served infantry support weapons and this fired the .30 carbine round compared to the standard .30-06 fired by the M1 rifle.
But all the other Europeans and Japanese had carbines and rifles and as Colt has said, they fired the same sized round as their standard infantry rifles.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 16, 2015 15:43:00 GMT
Armies as late as 16 August 2015 use a carbine. in the case of the U S Army it is the M-4, a scaled down, updated, and modified version of the M-16.
It is not entirely accurate to say that in the U S Army that the carbine was used by specific supporting branches and the rifle was the Infantryman's domain. The carbine was used Army wide, but it was used by specific position, most notably in those positions where the rifle was thought to be too cumbersome, and the pistol alone, not enough. You would find a lot of them among cannoneers in the Field Artillery, and mortar and other heavy weapons crews in the Infantry. Cavalry units in the U S Army used rifles, but the same job based criteria prevailed as in the other branches. It was considered a self defense weapon just like the pistol. The weapon of choice when engaging the enemy was the M-1 Rifle, and a few .03 Springfield scattered about for special purposes.
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Post by Beth on Aug 16, 2015 17:07:50 GMT
Thanks everyone. I did not realize about the caliper-grain. What unit of measurement is used to figure a caliber? Inches? Or is it some other scale?
We fly a 38mm caliber motor casing in several of our rockets and it is obviously bigger around than a 38 caliber shell. Hubby even asked our gun toting neighbor just yesterday and he didn't know.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 16, 2015 23:20:42 GMT
Armies as late as 16 August 2015 use a carbine. in the case of the U S Army it is the M-4, a scaled down, updated, and modified version of the M-16. It is not entirely accurate to say that in the U S Army that the carbine was used by specific supporting branches and the rifle was the Infantryman's domain. The carbine was used Army wide, but it was used by specific position, most notably in those positions where the rifle was thought to be too cumbersome, and the pistol alone, not enough. You would find a lot of them among cannoneers in the Field Artillery, and mortar and other heavy weapons crews in the Infantry. Cavalry units in the U S Army used rifles, but the same job based criteria prevailed as in the other branches. It was considered a self defense weapon just like the pistol. The weapon of choice when engaging the enemy was the M-1 Rifle, and a few .03 Springfield scattered about for special purposes. Chuck, The M-1 carbine, I will call the .30 caliber short, is very effective at short range. It would not be my choice for many things, but limited recoil allows user to bring it back on target rapidly. Very effective, 100yds in, much like the . 30-30 carbine of old. To get back to the Springfield carbine, it is well balanced, easy target acquisition, if you don't have to use slide sight. Bullet drop is a large concern. Have never shot Springfield for sport. Have shot Rolling Block, sights very similar, one deer, one shot, 240 yds. Not bad. Rifle in original condition, I think Custer had one. I have never been under pressure with that rifle, it makes a huge difference, as know. Much better than Muzzleloader. Quicker, as well.
Regards, Tom
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2015 23:43:20 GMT
Beth, Not to confuse the caliber thing - on the tin can (DE) I was on, we had 2 - 5 inch 38 caliber guns. If I remember correctly, the 38 caliber was a multiplier equating to barrel length. So 5" X 38 gave a length of nearly 16 feet. Hopefully I'll be corrected on this as I'm too lazy to look it up right now.
I have been working and hope to rejoin the board with questions and comments by the end of this month. Best regards to all, c.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 16, 2015 23:55:41 GMT
Chris, Glad you stuck your head out of the cave!
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 17, 2015 9:21:32 GMT
Yes the M1 carbine basically fired a pistol round (7.62x33) which would limit its range, it was developed to give rear echelon troops something bigger than a pistol for protection and found its way into all areas of the army and other services.
I don’t know why the cavalry dropped the Spencer, it was reliable and showed it’s worth a Gettysburg, I suppose it was slow to reload with the tube magazine and its effective range was limited to only 500 yards, but as we have discussed, cavalry are not infantry and having a seven shot repeater would give you local fire superiority with the maximum rate of fire of 20 per minute, which I suppose would expend most of you ammo but you could do a lot of damage with hit and run attacks.
Yan.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
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Post by colt45 on Aug 17, 2015 15:32:55 GMT
Thanks everyone. I did not realize about the caliper-grain. What unit of measurement is used to figure a caliber? Inches? Or is it some other scale? We fly a 38mm caliber motor casing in several of our rockets and it is obviously bigger around than a 38 caliber shell. Hubby even asked our gun toting neighbor just yesterday and he didn't know. Beth, in small arms, generally the caliber is measured in inches. However, strange as it may seem, the name of the caliber people are familiar with really doesn't reflect the true measurement, at least not all the time. For example, a 38 special round isn't .38 inches in width, as most people would assume. It is .357 inches if the projectile is a jacketed round and .358 inches if the round is made of lead. So, in reality, a 38 special round is really closer to being a 36 caliber round, as you will find in some of the old cap and ball revolvers. I think modern day round nomenclature was a matter of "round it off to the nearest impressive number so we can sell more of these". The 45 colt rounds I shoot in the guns you see in my avatar shoot lead rounds that are .452 inches in diameter, so they are a little larger than a pure ".45". In Custer's day, the pistols they carried shot a lead round that was .454 inches in diameter. The naming of the round seems to be more marketing driven than anything else.
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Post by Beth on Aug 17, 2015 22:12:38 GMT
Thanks Colt that's very interesting. Sort of like a 2x4 isn't really a 2x4 but industry standard says 1.5 by 3.5 is a 2x4.
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mac
Brigadier General
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Post by mac on Aug 17, 2015 22:16:30 GMT
So what is the calibre of a Lee Enfield .303? Sounds like buying ammo is a nightmare. Or wood for that matter Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 18, 2015 8:53:10 GMT
Mac the round fired by the SMLE was the 7.7x56mmR.
I need some 2x4 to re-enforce my garden fence, treated of course.
Yan.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 18, 2015 14:17:19 GMT
Mac the round fired by the SMLE was the 7.7x56mmR. I need some 2x4 to re-enforce my garden fence, treated of course. Yan. Yan, Don't tell me treated 2x4's are illegal over there as well, you know they make great weapons, when cut to size.
Regards, Tom
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