Rome/Israel

[Elwood]

Came into possession of a book on the Dead Sea Scrolls at my girlfriends place. Began reading it, fascinating stuff really. Most historians, archeologists believe the scrolls were hidden as the Roman legions were approaching Jerusalem around AD 70 as the Jewish nation was in revolt. Remember seeing a tv movie years ago on Masada, I believe Peter Strauss had the lead role of the Jewish rebel Ben Eleazar. Since then I have been fascinated by the story of Masada. Anyway, reading a bit of the Scroll book, have not finished it, made me head over to Amazon and purchase, after a bit of research, “Conquering Jerusalem” by Stephen Dando-Collins. Got very good reviews. Deals with first Jewish Revolt, AD 66-73. Just started it.

Anyone else have recommendations on this subject?

[Elwood]

Book was very good. Based mostly on writings of Josephus, the Jewish historian, along with archeological research. Went into fair amount of detail on seige of Jerusalem and many battles north of there. One thing I learned was that the Jewish side was severely fragmented. The whole spectrum from those who supported and even fought for Rome to hard core Zealots. Thousands of Jews lost their lives not at the hands of the Romans but rather to other Jews.

According to the author, info probably coming from Josephus, Titus, the Roman general who oversaw the Jerusalem siege, did not want to destroy the temple there in Jerusalem. Some historians disagree with this saying that Josephus wrote in this manner to protect himself and endear himself to Titus. But this is a whole other subject. According to the book, Titus did what he could to save it but circumstances of the battle got beyond his control. Part of it caught on fire which spread and the ferocity of the battle led to Roman soldiers destroying it and looting what they could.

Did not deal with the siege of Masada but I have that coming in a book I ordered.

[quincannon]

I really like this thread so far and am looking forward to seeing more here. When you think about it every thread on this forum is a damned good argument for mankind beating their swords into plowshares, but rather we continue to parrot the words to the old Kingston Trio song "When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?"

[Elwood]

Indeed. Girlfriend and I were talking about Gaza situation. She asked, so this (war, killing) has been going for some time? I answered, only the last 3,000 years or so. Which does not make me optimistic for peace anytime soon.

[quincannon]

Hatred is a powerful emotion. Anyone who hates their neighbor insures that the neighbor has the upper hand over those emotions. In other words they win. You, the hater, lose your inner soul by the actions of your own hand and mind. The solution is not to hate. You may dislike what your neighbor does. You may even take action against your neighbor for what they do. In the end you may have to kill your neighbor for your own survival. Just don't hate them. They are God's children just like you are. Someone made them act against you. The secret is turn your neighbor against those among them that stoke your neighbor's fire and rid themselves of the cancer that lives in your neighbor's neighborhood. All easy to say. All very hard to do.

[Elwood]

Well the Romans took Masada. In AD 73 or 74, historians disagree on the exact year, a Roman legion under General Silva arrived at Masada, the last Jewish-held fortification in the rebellion which began in AD 66. Silva first had his engineers build a wall around the mountain, almost 3 miles worth, 8-10 feet tall. This was to isolate the Jews, both to prevent any escaping and any aid from coming in. A siege ramp was then began at the most favorable spot for the Romans. Most of this ramp is still there today.

The Jews resisted as best they could, did some damage to the first siege towers of the Romans but Silva’s soldiers finally succeeded in burning down a large portion of the wall, big enough to send assault forces through. But according to the writings of Josephus, when the Romans finally breached the wall in the early morning hours they found that the Jews had committed mass suicide. Some 960 souls. Searching the mountaintop, the Romans found 2 women and some children still alive, hiding in a room. They related the story which Josephus would write down.

Now some historians and archeologists refute Josephus’ story of the mass suicide. They point to the absence of mass graves on Masada, only a few bones found. But other writings say the Romans simply tossed the bodies over the side of the mountain for nature/wild animals to consume. Romans were never known for burying their dead adversaries. Almost all information on Masada comes from Josephus not Roman historians/writers. Which leads me to believe the mass suicide story. Had it been a spectacular final battle, some Roman would have written it.

With the fall of Masada and Jerusalem in ruins, so ended the rebellion.

I have started the book “Ten Caesars”. It starts with Octavian, later known as Augustus. The Romans have always fascinated me. They could do things to their adversaries which would make nazis toss their cookies. Yet on the other extreme, their engineers, military and civil, were some of the greatest the world has known. Caesar, fighting in Gaul, had his troops build a bridge across a river. The Rhine maybe? He led his legion across then returned back a few days later and destroyed the bridge just to show the Gauls that he could do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted.

Hope everyone is doing well.

[Elwood]

Reading on the Bar Kokhba Rebellion now, AD 132-136 , last Jewish rebellion against Rome. Hadrian (of Hadrian's Wall fame) was emperor in Rome at the time. Hadrian traveled outside of Rome more than any other emperor, in fact spending as much time out of Rome as in it. On trip to Israel/Judea in AD 130 he instituted an edict outlawing circumcision which he and many Romans saw as no different than castration. This, along with a plan to reconstruct Jerusalem as a Roman city with temples to Roman gods, upset most of the Jewish population. Jerusalem, although still mostly in ruins from its' destruction in AD 70 by the Roman legions under Titus, was populated. Many had hopes that the Jewish Temple would be rebuilt. Hadrian ended these hopes. By AD 132, the Jews under Ben Kosiba, later given the name of Bar Kokhba (son of a star) struck first. The first year or so went well for the Jews. They fought mostly a guerrilla war, using small scale, hit and run tactics. Hadrian in turn sent his general Severus from Britian along with at least 3 legions from Europe. Gradually, the Romans overwhelmed the Jewish forces who made their last organized stand at the city of Betar, southwest of Jerusalem. By the end of AD135, Betar had been taken and the rebels leader Bar Kokhba killed. There were mopping up duties to perform but by 136, the war was over.

Losses on both sides were large. The Romans lost over the equivalent of 2 legions, 15,000 to 20,000 although accurate estimates are in dispute among historians. Jewish losses were much heavier although correct estimates are hard to come by also. Roman historians say close to 500,000 were killed in the war with another 100,000 sold off into slavery. Romans observed a scorched earth policy. Whole villages were destroyed regardless of size and all inhabitants either killed or sold into slavery. It was written that the slave market was so over-saturated that a slave could be bought for a days worth of grain for a horse.

Book I read was The Bar Kokhba War AD 132-136 by Lindsay Powell. Very good with excellent maps and illustrations. Fairly easy read.

Todays problems in this area of the world are nothing new, been going on for some time.

[quincannon]

Indeed they have, and today's activities will put additional strain on trying to sort out any solution. From initial reports, and remember truth is the first casualty of war ALWAYS, it would seem to me that Iran miscalculated. Of course, Israel could have found a better way to hit that bastard they whacked in the embassy a couple of weeks ago too. He needed whacking mind you, but there are the diplomatic niceties that should be observed. The number of casualties sustained by Israel will determine the next step. If none or if they are very light, Israel my decide to do little or nothing. If they are heavy, then it is Katy bar the door, and I would not take a nuke or two off the table. The Israeli PM is a frigging barbarian much like one we have home grown here. There will be nothing resembling a peace process or any positive movement toward that goal as long as he is in power. The leadership in Iran are religious lunatics, none of them worth a pound of shit, just like the religious lunatics we have here who want to control everyone else's life but their own.

Nasty situation.

[Elwood]

Agreed. We’ll see what tomorrow brings, but I’m reading where almost all incoming were taken down and initial reports are casualties are very light. Here’s hoping.

[yanmacca]

The USA, Great Britain, France and even Jordan took out a lot of the ordnance fired at Israel, their own iron dome did the rest, if I was Netanyahu I wouldnt strike back but post a film clip of me smiling with a caption saying, "is that the best you have got Iran"

Iran has its finger prints on everything which has happened in the middle east, they are just hell bent on destroying Israel period.

I wonder how Hamas can carryon fighting in Gaza, where are they getting their ammo from, its been six months now without a break and they can still fight the IDF. Are they getting supplied via Egypt?

Ian

[Elwood]

Yes hopefully Israel holds off responding. I imagine the US, Great Britain etc. are telling them/or asking them to do so.

[quincannon]

The Sicilian expression "Revenge is a dish best served cold" applies. The problem is really a two edged sword though. Israel cannot allow Iran to go unpunished in the near term. If they did, bombardment du jour would be the new normal for Israel. While they were lucky, skilled, prepared (take your pick) last night, that does not portend that same good fortune tomorrow night. Israel must respond but it must be measured in the short term. In the long term though through mischief, misdirection, and malice, they must visit misfortune upon Iranian leaders, to the point where any Iranian cleric or soldier would rather shit on the tomb of the prophet than go out on a public street at any time day or night

[Elwood]

Apr 15, 2024 1:49:51 GMT quincannon said:

The Sicilian expression "Revenge is a dish best served cold" applies.

Sicilian? And I thought it was Klingon. Guess that Star Trek movie took dramatic license.

[yanmacca]

Its the Israeli mindset which we have to understand, they just have to strike back, to do that we have to go back in history link

Ian

[quincannon]

It's not the MUST Ian, It's the HOW. You can use the kinetic approach, but physical damage can be restored and repaired. If you attack the mind of Iran, that is where the lasting lessons of conflict reside.

Yes, Mister E, Revenge served cold. My dear one would remind me of that every time I objected to pasta three times a week. High in the mountains of that Holy Isle is where her relatives carried a Lupara and do not have much of a sense of humor.