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Post by quincannon on Oct 28, 2023 1:33:24 GMT
Thought about creating this thread for a couple of weeks, and frankly I wanted to do it in a way that avoids politics as much as humanly possible, keeping in mind that war is politics by other means as Clausewitz once remarked. So, this is the place for that discussion, but please keep it limited to tactics, operational considerations, and strategy. What this thread is not is a place to vent prejudice and hate on either side. First off we are better than that. Second it is morally wrong. Rage on the part of either side is not a reason or excuse to lose your humanity
The losers here, the Israeli and Palestinian people, the ones who only wish to be left in peace, to pursue their life's dreams. That said Israel was attacked and suffered substantial loss of life. That cannot be left unattended to. The question is how to do it in a manner that not precipitate wider regional or worldwide conflict, destroy the attacker, and at the same time minimize casualties on both sides to noncombatants? Damned if I know. I do know how to wage unrestricted warfare. You kill every last son of a bitch on the other side with a gun, and keep on killing until they are all dead, and then you vomit, and never ever get over what you have done.
Like many of you, I have watched the IDF over the last three weeks. They are playing the long game. There is no hurry. They mean what they say. They will hunt down every mother's son who is, ever was, or might be Hamas and they will kill them, just like they did all those years ago to all those involved in Munich. Meanwhile they will give Hamas no rest. The last couple of days have shown us that with limited incursions into Gaza. Limited or main assault? Who knows. None of us for sure. It really does not matter. Hamas must be on alert 24/7, while the IDF holds the initiative. It is much easier to destroy your enemy when they are worn down, hungry, tired, nerves completely shattered, and morale swirling around the bottom of the toilet bowl. Bet on it. Israel has.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 29, 2023 20:16:20 GMT
Stayed away from this sorry escapade, but over the recent days the IDF have made nightly incursions through the wire with battle groups made up of armour, infantry and attach helicopters, now are they testing the Hamas defence, or even fighting for information on how Hamas are reacting to these incursions. If the IDF want to bring Hamas out of their tunnels to fight out in the open then I wonder if they will be suckered into this? I would expect that Hamas will play to their strengths and keep to the ruins of built-up areas.
What ever the mission the IDF will be in for a costly battle, but they know this but what choice do they have, they have to severely damage Hamas or they will be fighting over the same ground again in a decade or so.
The Israelis have the capabilities to level the Gaza strip and the west bank too, but they won’t, but if Hamas or Hezbollah had the fraction of Israels power, they would use it to wipe out all the Jews in the area in a way Hitler could only dream about.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Oct 29, 2023 22:26:40 GMT
Well said. Quite accurate I think. Gaza is like Monte Cassino on steroids, but I think the IDF has a good plan. They really don't have to do anything really big now. The fact that they have the capability to do something really big at any moment of their choosing has a wearing effect on Hamas. Hamas must be on alert 24/7 as I said above, while the IDF a couple of miles away can be resting or having a Bar B Q. When they do decide to go in for a narrow penetration excursion, Hamas has no idea if this is in fact a shallow thing or the big one. They have to react to everything that comes their way as if it were a major offensive operation. Over time that will destroy an individual's combat capability. A human's nerves can only stand so much. Imagine yourself Ian sitting in some tunnel, dark, probably damp, rat infested, with little food and water, with the other guy dropping bunker busters on you 24/7. Sure as hell would not like that one bit. Similar in many ways to what those French strong points went through at Dien Bien Phu. The Viet Minh did not beat the French, they wore them down to nothing.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 30, 2023 8:33:06 GMT
I agree QC, Hamas terrorist have been hit every day and night by Israeli hardware. The IDF blockade will be taking its toll too, nothing is getting in. But again the Palestinian people are also suffering, but Hamas have never put their people first. It was on the news last night that a mother who buried two of her family said, that they were martyrs, which shows how this conflict will go on.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Oct 30, 2023 17:22:23 GMT
For the last two seasons I have been watching a series on PBS called "World On Fire". It is British so you may be familiar with it Ian. It tells of the lives and struggles of several people during the war one of which is a young German teenage girl, who has been selected to breed with the SS to produce good stock for Hitler's fever dream. She has started out as a true believer, and we will see how that goes as the series progresses. That is the same kind of thing you are dealing with many of these "innocent" Palestinians. They have been fed this crap so long, actually for centuries if not Millinia, that this is all they believe. It is as ingrained in them as much as fish and chips are ingrained in the English diet. I am not sure you can do anything about that. Turning the other cheek certainly does not work. What will help is a good education, and in that atmosphere that itself is highly problematic. A two state solution, may help too, but again that is highly problematic, if the leaders of those two states do not desire peace.
All this of course is an echelon above war. Conventional wisdom says you do not fight in cities and restricted terrain, and if you do your casualties are going to be off the charts. The IDF knows that, and what I am starting to see, I THINK, is the IDF trying to find a work around. As tragic as it is, you must starve, and bleed the good, the semi-good, the ugly, and the very bad, and artillery, bombs, and tank commanders who may be smart, but not smart enough to differentiate between which is which. That's why they call it war, and as Sherman said "War is Hell" He was right.
For Elwood, he also said if he owned both hell and Texas, he would live in hell and rent out Texas, but that's another subject for a different day.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 30, 2023 20:35:55 GMT
The lastest crack now is that Hamas could be preventing British nationals from leaving Gaza, which sounds a bit like hostage taking to me. I heard hell and Texas line in a western movie lately, cant recall which one, maybe they changed the state nmae too. "world on fire" is okay, series one was the best though, the desert scenes are not as good as the ones in this show link
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Oct 31, 2023 2:47:06 GMT
From a strictly legal perspective it probably is not Ian, because Hamas is the duly elected government in Gaza. Governments have certain legal powers no matter how hostile, corrupt, and sadistic that government is. From a practical standpoint though you are of course correct. It is hostage taking, not only of British citizens, but those of many other nations as well.
Just from pictures I have seen of the Libyan desert I tend to agree with you. I did like the camo scheme on the Kubelwagen though.
Wish I could watch that SAS series, but it plays only in the UK. How old is it? Maybe PBS will pick it up here in the States.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 31, 2023 20:49:53 GMT
Well QC, duly elected government is rather stretching it I think, Hamas just about won the election in 2006, then Gaza had a civil war which Hamas wiped out their rival Fatah and they have stayed in power without elections ever since, so they can’t be voted out, a bit like a few more in that region. They do have a political wing rather like ISIS and the rest of the murdering swines in that neck of the forrest, but on whole, the world see’s them as terrorists, which as we have seen they are in a big way. The SAS show was first shown about a year ago now, it has premiered in the US on EPIX, but you may need “Prime” to see it. Ian
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Post by quincannon on Oct 31, 2023 23:56:23 GMT
Well yes, but Hitler and the Nazi's were the duly elected government of Germany in 1933 and I don't think they had any elections after that either. Two peas in the same pod.
I wish the world seeing them as terrorists was a universal truth. Unfortunately, it's not. It's not true in your country and it's not true in mine, and for the most part not true in many countries worldwide. There are those among all of us that think like they do, act like they do, and have the same objectives they do. It is a cult of hate and evil regardless how each of these like minded splinter groups label themselves. Unfortunately, most of the world is not familiar with the writings of John Stuart Mill, which many attribute to Edmund Burke in error.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 1, 2023 16:04:52 GMT
Well QC, its odd to see two philosophers with different ideals writing the same stuff, but if readers cant see the difference between the ideology of both men then they are not taking notice.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Nov 1, 2023 17:23:39 GMT
Oh Ian, it's not about Mill or Burke. It's about evil thrives when good men do nothing. Good men seem to be in short supply these days.
Evidently it was Mill that wrote that but for some reason, unknown to me, Burke gets credit.
Lots of interesting still photos taken by the IDF in Gaza. Modelers paradise.
Tactically, the IDF seems to be progressing very deliberately, using fire and maneuver, with fire being the dominant factor initially.
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