Ford D Presentation

[miker]

www.thelbha.com/news

At 10AM on 17 June 2023 Michael A Donahue will present a lecture on recent findings Found near Ford D corroborating Accounts provided by John Stands in Timber. 

Perhaps some of the regulars there can provide enlightenment. 

[azranger]

Feb 5, 2023 6:46:26 GMT miker said:

www.thelbha.com/news

At 10AM on 17 June 2023 Michael A Donahue will present a lecture on recent findings Found near Ford D corroborating Accounts provided by John Stands in Timber. 

Perhaps some of the regulars there can provide enlightenment. 

Mike

Not sure what you are looking for? JSIT has two books out with everything. He drew a map of the battlefield where he talks about the Cheyenne coming from the north to meet Custer after he moved down from Cemetery Ridge.  He also went on the battlefield with a participant and describes where the battle started. That is near the north fork of MTC. 

Tom Tubman and myself were looking in the area just off the old entrance road with a view toward the river. We saw a group of Cheyenne on horses. It was not open to the public but is part of their ceremonies during the battle memorials. They also gather on the east side to the east of BRE extension. Again it is not open to the public.

The Cheyennes also come in from Reno Creek Rd and through the southern end of the R/B site. I have ridden that twice. I was on Fence Post (3411?) and observed them. They saw me and the facial expression were not to friendly. 

Regards

Steve

[miker]

I am looking for new books on artifact finds on and off the reservation. I have both JSIT books and the potential synergy would benefit both Oral History and archeology. And my own curiosity.

[quincannon]

I am not so sure that artifact finds are all that important, in and of themselves. As my son, the professional historian says, all too often (for my poor ego), that the find itself is meaningless, unless it tells a story. His bona fides is almost 30 years at Colonial Williamsburg, and being involved in archeological digs at Jamestown and Yorktown (in his off the books hours and days). What he means by that is that if you find a cavalry cartridge case in the parking lot of the Sage Motel, for instance, it does have any meaning. You do not know how it got there, or who shot it. All you know is that it is of the type, and age of those cartridges used by the cavalry. On the other hand, if you find more than one in the same vicinity, all of the same type and age, you could tentatively conclude, that a cavalry unit, or part of a unit, occupied the area. Still not conclusive, but an indicator. Now if you can, through forensics, match those cartridges to cartridges from Company C, 7th Cavalry, a story is starting to unfold, and you can conclude that part of Company C was at one time in the area that is now the parking lot of the Sage Motel. That is something that can be built upon. Something solid, because it is highly unlikely that any weapons captured from Company C, that fell into Indian hands would have those capturing the carbines all discharge or test fire those weapons in the same general area and at approximately the same time.

The moral of the story is never hang your hat on one specific item being found at any location. Hanging your hat in that manner, usually becomes hanging your ass out for some no good son of a bitch like myself to come along a kick it.

[miker]

A quite agree, but even a single artifact can provide enlightenment. For example, archeologists/anthropologists found on the East Coast of North America a flint spearhead from quite early. I forget the age, but lets say, for the sake of argument, 20,000 years ago. It was found all by itself, partially eroded out of a cliff face. There was nothing else by it. The team later went back and attempted to find more evidence, hopefully something like a point next to charcoal from a fire. No luck. No some scientists say that it is meaningless. Yet it is there. It means someone was on the East Coast of the continent long before anyone thought they were. It doesn't mean the stayed or went inland. They could have gone back the way they came. It certainly didn't float there.

So yes, a single cartridge case found in the parking lot is useless, especially if I pick it up and take it into the local museum. Properly recorded and documented, it has some meaning. We don't know how it got there, but we might expect where there is one there are more, so now we have a nexus to search from.

Evidence is accumulating supporting something happening at Ford B. I do not know of any evidence of artifacts at Ford D. That doesn't mean none have been found. Some might have been taken to peoples home and their utility is lost. I haven't found anything documenting any finds. As I said before, my google-fu is weak sometimes. I have not come across any studies since that 1997 book discussing where things are and related them to other things that have been found.

Thus, for now, I currently believe Custer took two companies and went partway to Ford D and was turned back. I choose to believe the other three companies were fighting vicinity Calhoun Hill and the "gap" (which should not be new to anyone who can read a map. I am probably wrong is some respect. But that is where the evidence speaks to me. Certainly the number of cartridges found on those two skirmish lines indicates something of some significance was building and may have prevents C,L, and I from going anywhere else.

[quincannon]

Different sort of example Mike. If an artifact is found three thousand miles from the place it was known to have been used, then that is a story in itself.

Regardless, if there is no story that can immediately be told, the artifact is meaningless until, along with other supporting evidence, that story can be told.

Same thing with the two markers that were supposed to once be located in the parking lot of the Trading Post on Highway 212. It's legend until someone can provide proof that they were once there. Old wives tales do not cut it. Produce the record, show a photo that shows them unmistakably there, give me a sworn under oath affidavit by someone who saw them, and was in a position in time and space to see them. Don't be telling me that someone saw them but can't remember his name or when. I have been asking about them for ten years here and other places and as of 30 seconds ago, no one has been able to stand and deliver. I happen to think the story is probably true, but would I bet the farm on it? Not on your life.

[azranger]

Feb 10, 2023 2:09:02 GMT quincannon said:

Different sort of example Mike. If an artifact is found three thousand miles from the place it was known to have been used, then that is a story in itself.

Regardless, if there is no story that can immediately be told, the artifact is meaningless until, along with other supporting evidence, that story can be told.

Same thing with the two markers that were supposed to once be located in the parking lot of the Trading Post on Highway 212. It's legend until someone can provide proof that they were once there. Old wives tales do not cut it. Produce the record, show a photo that shows them unmistakably there, give me a sworn under oath affidavit by someone who saw them, and was in a position in time and space to see them. Don't be telling me that someone saw them but can't remember his name or when. I have been asking about them for ten years here and other places and as of 30 seconds ago, no one has been able to stand and deliver. I happen to think the story is probably true, but would I bet the farm on it? Not on your life.

Chuck

It was an NPS employee that saw them. Putt's trading post was not around. I asked Putt and he did not know  anything other than what he read about the NPS employees observation. I think you can find that NPS employees name in one of the PhD Douglas Scott books.

Regards

Steve

[miker]

Well, as usual, I had no idea where Putts Trading Post is and I don't remember seeing it when I went there, but I did have Target Fixation. I googled it just now and found it. Perhaps I should have gone there as they seem to have a lot of books.

To return to your example, finding a LBH era cartridge on top of the asphalt parking doesn't prove anything. If a pot hole develops and then in the repair and a LBH-era cartridge case is discovered, then it is significant because it probably tells us one of two things. Elements of the 7th Cav got that far in their movement toward Ford D or an Indian fired from there. More evidence is needed and the Putts might object to their parking lot being torn up. We don't know how it fits into the battle, but does give us a reason to try and discover more. It does not particularly prove anything by itself.

This is different than an obscure observation about where two markers were placed because we don't have ANY physical evidence, the fact that someone saw the markers in that location is now somewhat oral tradition rather than oral history (because the witness is dead), and we now know that markers were moved and were not necessarily placed where the trooper fell.

[quincannon]

That's my point. The markers are oral tradition, not proof, nor oral history. A cartridge found as a result of a latter day dig regardless of the purpose for that dig, becomes oral history (the fact it was found) but in itself does not tell a story. There may be a story, but we don't have a way of determining what the story is. Unless that cartridge could be matched to others known to have been fired by someone during the battle, it also could have been fired by someone earlier or later than the battle. You cannot go to a live fire training area anywhere in the Army. pick up a 5.56 round and state that it was fired during a live fire exercise on 10 February 1970 can you? No. What you can say is it is of the type round used by the Army from about 1970 to the present day.

That is quite different than Charles MacDonald going into the Ardennes to the very position he personally occupied during the Battle of the Bulge, walking along his line to a foxhole occupied by one of his platoon leaders scraping the dirt a bit and finding 30 Cal rounds, and not only being able to determine when they were fired, but by whom. By the way he did that several times after he retired when he was leading tours of the Ardennes. One of them is recorded on film.

[miker]

Chuck. That lone cartridge properly collected is not recorded is not oral history. If it can be determined to be a cavalry carbine cartridge it is evidence it was fired by a trooper or an Indian and could trigger a wider search.

If I pick it up, put it in my pocket, it’s an interesting find and is thus oral history till I die, at which point it become oral tradition.

[quincannon]

Notice how I qualified what I said Mike. The fact that it was found (by me) makes it my oral history. If I write down that I found it, then it becomes history (the fact I found it). Now if I exceed that, and say just because I found the cartridge at such and such a place means that this or that happened there, then it becomes oral bull shit.

[miker]

I'm perhaps being dense, but I do not get your qualification. We may be in violent agreement. I don't know.

[quincannon]

I think we are. Either that or we are violently disagreeable.

I qualified it by saying "the fact that it was found" That fact is oral history. If you write it down it becomes recorded history. Both are completely meaningless. I am really good at meaningless.

Good concert tonight. My granddaughter PS is going to call later, she is helping me sort out Joan's on line stuff, and I just opened the brand new Rubicon 1/56 scale T55A

[miker]

Sounds good.

[deadwoodgultch]

Mike, first thanks for the good weather down here. Heading to the east coast today. Read about Donohue's presentation the other day, made a call, supposedly photos will be included. Steve worked with Doug Scott, once upon a time and discussed a revolver and other finds in that and other areas.

Red tide a bitch in this area.

Regards,
Tom