Never Got to Ford D

[azranger]

Here is my take on E and F. You can substitute any other companies and it doesn't change much. We know that Custer was with the Gray horses E company. Martin was sent back from MTC. We know that F had a detail out in front of Custer. I suspect they checked out Ford B. We know that E and F ended up on LSH and E moving down Deep Ravine.
We know that an Indian participant was firing from Cemetery Ridge in two directions. One direction toward BRE where there is the artifacts of soldiers and Indians firing. 

When I was standing on Cemetery Ridge with my friend  Will Hutchison we looked hard at the markers and what they represented. There are only two markers between LSH and those in Cemetery Ravine and Deep Ravine. If you bailed off Cemetery Ridge from the firing position as noted by the Indian participant it is consistent with being pushed off CR. A side note is they were observed as moving their arms like they were running but not moving fast. I think having your carbine attached and going downhill explains that observation. 

That would place E on Cemetery Ridge and from there you cover the west side of LSH where there is sufficient cover for Indians to move within  80 yards of LSH. What also became obvious is the route over bypassed Deep Gully. I believe E was attempting to go back the way they came over. Running into the Big Village or Deep Gully doesn't seem real appealing to me. I think they stayed as  the line on Maguire's map shows and they went to far down Cemetery Ravine before crossing back.

The movement across would have EF and CIL in parallel and at some points withing 550 yards of each other. If there is problem with that let me know.  That seems like a good movement to me. You can't see any crossing areas without going the western corridor. I believe that at Deep Ravine there was a separate fight with Cheyennes protecting sacred items. There are 4-5 markers that are close to Deep Ravine intersection with the river. I believe it is a separate event on the way over. 

The Sioux have drawings of chasing the gray horses across the Western Corridor. 

As far as tactics go I leave that up to those that have studied tactics. My data comes from eyewitness accounts, markers, maps, and artifacts.

The movement across CR and BRE I took from early discussions and opinions of officers such as Colt. He stated they would move out in parallel across CR and BRE in support of each other. I believe the same would apply on the way over there. 

As far as tactics what would a retrograde look like is my question? I believe it has been discussed in detail.

My friend LT. Col Jeff Cooper, USMC, stated if you find yourself in a fair fight your  tactics suck. So the tactics of 5 companies destroyed to last man is not something meaningful unless it explains how they ended up. There is large gap in what they did before being fixed and destroyed. The Indians certainly witnessed the whole event. 


We know the soldiers were further north than LSH. What tactics would be used prior to the end result of death to 5 companies. Does it look like a defense with the 5 companies in mutual support of each other or does it look more like a retrograde that was not successful.

If CIL were separate from EF who would be the Senior Officer? The sock discovery near MTF is certainly up for discussion but I believe it was identified by initials.  Its all part of the strange things that go on with this battle. 

Regards

Steve





 




 

[azranger]

Feb 27, 2023 20:13:06 GMT miker said:

Feb 27, 2023 19:34:50 GMT Elwood said:

Interesting! Also, did not Custer also get intel from Boston Custer on Benteen’s location? Having been messaged and ordered to expedite, George may have been expecting (hoping) Benteen to come over the ridges from the south at any moment. Might help with the retrograde thinking.

We do not know what, if anything, Boston told George.   It's  time distance plot.  Custer had no idea Reno was between him and Benteen and stopped Benteen's forward movement.  Had Benteen gone right, then something else would have happened.  Perhaps all three battalions would have been destroyed.

Hi Mike

We don't even know what side of the river Custer expected to be on when he sent Martin. I believe since he mentioned the packs it is more likely he believed he would be on the village side of the river. If the pack were to follow Custer's route north it makes no sense.

Regards

Steve

[quincannon]

"The Sioux have drawings of chasing the grey horses across the western corridor" Another Keogh sock story I am afraid Steve. Drawing is one thing. Chasing is another. What Sioux, by specific name, group, warrior society, or tribe chased grey horses across the western corridor? Name them. If all the other accounts about Sioux activities are correct, there were no Sioux to do any chasing. Balderdash to the tenth power. Pigeon poop, that cannot be traced to any documented incident, and that can be factually defined and attributed to someone or some ones.

No Steve, if you find yourself in a fair fight, the other guys tactics suck. That is of course if you believe as I do that the other guy is always smarter than you are. Believing that insures that you may some day play with your grandchildren. Humility is the greatest of all military virtues.

[miker]

Feb 27, 2023 20:57:01 GMT azranger said:

Feb 27, 2023 20:13:06 GMT miker said:

We do not know what, if anything, Boston told George.   It's  time distance plot.  Custer had no idea Reno was between him and Benteen and stopped Benteen's forward movement.  Had Benteen gone right, then something else would have happened.  Perhaps all three battalions would have been destroyed.

Hi Mike

We don't even know what side of the river Custer expected to be on when he sent Martin. I believe since he mentioned the packs it is more likely he believed he would be on the village side of the river. If the pack were to follow Custer's route north it makes no sense.

Regards

Steve

There is nothing in the message about where to link up.  The only thing that makes sense is for Benteen to follow one trail or the other.  He (may) have known that Custer went right and up toward the Reno Postion from Martini, but it is isn't mentioned in his writing or testimony.  There was a trail to the left.  He was on the horns of a dilemna.   He went right when the Indians motioned him to the right.  It makes perfect sense for Benteen to follow the trail that Custer took north, that Martini went on to find him.  It makes no sense for Benteen and the packs to go left up the valley.  Custer is going to the North because the Indians are between him and Reno.

Edit:  I should have type "LEFT" and not "right" in my initial post.  It's corrected.  I apologize for the mistype.

[mac]

I don't think we can simply say no one was thinking of anything.

The task is to try to understand how E,F,HQ,C,I,L finished where they lie. They have maintained their integrity as units until their final moments. Someone was giving orders and it probably was Custer. He was thinking something; something that logically leads to the final positions of his command.

Custer knows where Reno and Benteen have been sent.

Custer thinks Benteen should come back because Custer has seen the size of the village and realizes there will be nothing else out there for Benteen.

Custer wants Benteen to "bring the packs".

So either Custer wants the packs himself or Custer wants Benteen to protect the packs as they approach the battle.

Custer wants the packs himself

Then Benteen was right to choose the trail he did.

Custer wants Benteen to protect the packs

Custer expects that the Indians may be able to reach the packs. This could be because Custer expects that Reno will not be able to hold the valley and will quickly withdraw once he is pressured.

We know Reno does not withdraw because he is waiting for Custer. We will never know why Custer did not let Reno know that Custer was moving right.

So we can follow a logical train of thought that leads to the point where Custer may think that Reno is moving back to Ford A or Custer may think that Benteen is on his way along Custer's route North with the packs and Reno is just stuck in the valley.

Incidentally, it does not matter to my theory which of these is true.

Cheers

[miker]

I did not say"no one was thinking".

I said words to the effect of "No one knows what they were thinking and it is unkbnowable".

I also said words to the effect of " Custer,Reno, and Benteen had no idea or knowledge of where the others were or what they were doing."

During a Field Exercise in Germany, my battalion commander lost control of the battalion and I had a platoon get lost. I was fourth in the line of march, I rolled up to the place we were crossing the line of departure. The CO was there and gestured me to come talk to him. Very irate he asked "WTF are you doing here now?".

I said " it's 0930 and I'm right on time."

He looked at his watch and said "Roger. You're in the lead. Move out." And off I went. The rest of the battalion eventually caught up by which time my wayward platoon got linked up, and I had found a hole and an unguarded bridge which was my specialty.

We started with Radio silence and we were jammed for a while.

Why was I , supposed to be last, there first and on time and everyone else was lost, including the scouts? They all had maps. Knew where to go. We had even reconned the routes a few weeks before.

So why, in the modern era in an exercise in peacetime, with good maps, radios, reconnaissance, and rehearsals, did we lose control and situational awareness?

Custer wasn't in command of his regiment, he had no plan, no situational awareness except what he could see which was not much, his companies ended up spread out and out of supporting distance, and I believe Scott is right when he posits they lost cohesion, bunched, and broke.

You people continue to put yourself in his position but add the information we have today. You make everything too complicated. Its simple, based on what I know, The Custer battalion never got to Ford D and did not get much further than beyond where they died.

No one has directed me to documented archaeological finds showing the battalion got very far, if at all, off the park boundaries. I welcome correction. Maybe I missed it in the books I read. Oral tradition is not enough. Oral history decays into tradition when the witnesses die. Paintings are not good documentation.

Reno withdrew because he was getting enveloped and he had no support. A senior commanders main job is to ensure his units are properly supported. Sheridan, Terry, and Custer all fragmented their forces and placed them in a manner which subjected them all to to defeat and destruction.

Today, communications are established between from higher to lower and supporting to supported. They probably didn't have that doctrine, but it is incumbent for the senior commander to clearly communicate hi intentions, plans, and orders to his subordinates. Custer totally failed that.

I will be very excited to hear what Scott talks about this summer. Maybe he will throw light on it and the solution will rise up from the ground like the gold plates of Mormon.

I don't see why you think Custer would have some secret meaning in "Bring Packs". That does not mean protect the packs. It means "get the packs and get your ass up here with me."

Reno took himself out of the fight whether or not he went to his hill or back to Ford A. He found good ground on his hill and saved the 7th Cavalry. I believe he would have been destroyed if he had tried to get back to Ford A.

[quincannon]

Rarely am I in agreement with Steve, but this is one of those times. I too think Custer expected to be on the west side of the river when he sent the Bring Packs message to Benteen. The message is vague to say the least, in reality more like piss poor. I believe Custer expected to cross at Ford B, and the message was sent BEFORE, Custer discovered that Ford B was either no good or overcome by events. That would put Martini back on the trail about the time Custer left the western bluffs and started his decent into Medicine Tail Coulee. Custer meets Wolf Tooth in the coulee, and from that point on Ford B was a no go.

Based upon that Benteen's proper course of action would be go straight down the valley with the packs. The message did not say to do that, but Benteen was a trained capable officer, and could hear the firing in the valley. He had every right to presume that the firing came from both Reno and Custer, and they were fully engaged.

All this is prelude to me saying. BENTEEN WAS NOT RIGHT TO CHOOSE THE TRAIL HE DID. THAT TRAIL WAS CHOSEN FOR HIM BY VIRTUE OF EVENTS.

Anyone who deludes themselves into thinking Benteen could get his three companies and the trains over that eastern terrain that Custer took and arrive in a timely manner is also a resident of Cloud Cuckoo Land. Four hours is my best estimate, without opposition, and losing quite a few pack animals in the process.

[miker]

Feb 28, 2023 3:47:54 GMT quincannon said:

Anyone who deludes themselves into thinking Benteen could get his three companies and the trains over that eastern terrain that Custer took and arrive in a timely manner is also a resident of Cloud Cuckoo Land. Four hours is my best estimate, without opposition, and losing quite a few pack animals in the process.

I disagree.  Reno has been pushed out of the way.  Many, but not all the Indians are massing on Custer.  The fire from the Valley is coming from Reno's troops not Custer.   The gunfire heard after Benteen links up with Reno is coming from MTC and those two skirmish lines. 

Had he gone up Reno's  original path he likely would have had a BAD DAY (TM).  Indians would likely have been drawn to him like flies on crap  Had he quickly rode North he likely suffered the same result as Custer, and Reno would have followed suit. 

Benteen complied with his orders, perhaps in a  somewhat lackadaisical fashion and his decisions may have not been the best, but he stiffened Reno's spine,  executed well,  and saved most of the regiment.   NOTE. Had I been Reno or Benteen, I like to think I would have ridden toward the fight as Wier wanted to.  But I'm honest enough to admit don't know what I would have done and my possible decision is based on knowledge I have now. 

Some days there are no good decisions.  You can only die once, so that is some comfort. 

[quincannon]

You had best read what I said again Mike. You have the benefit of knowing what took place. Benteen had no such advantage.

I did not mention any gunfire after Benteen linked up with Reno. Benteen clearly heard gunfire coming from the valley as he approached. He had every reason to think that is where both Custer and Reno were. Recall his first words to Reno "Where is Custer?" That is a man who up to that point thought they were both together.

Had he followed Reno's original path HE WOULD HAVE HAD A VERY BAD DAY, no likely about it.

The Reno/Benteen people did hear firing in the north, but it sure as hell was not coming from MTC or any skirmish line. They heard the last of Custer, for he was well and truly fixed, and was about to be overrun. By the time of the Reno/Benteen link up Custer was fully engaged in the north. Your timing is not accurate I fear, either that or you have been reading all too much Wagner, and believe him. When Weir left to go north Custer already had the snitzle

[miker]

I work very hard to keep current information out of my analysis, but I don't claim to always be successful and I try to guard against using modern tactical concepts.

I do not accept Wagner's numbers completely. I calculated movement rates on my own and then compared them with Wagner, Grey, and Machino.

I agree Benteen heard gunfire from the LBH valley and it was coming from Reno's breakout and he saw Indians and troops moving around.

The gunfire I refer to is that supposedly heard by Godfrey and others after they linked up.

When Martini went to find Benteen, he saw Reno still fighting and even though his horse was wounded, the path back was relatively free. Boston Custer apparently had no issues either.

Where is Custer? I agree Benteen would have thought Reno and Custer were together. We don't know if Martini told Benteen they were separated. I think not.

By going up the valley, I think you mean the LBH valley from which Reno had been driven. We know he saw two trails, one from Reno and I suppose the other from Custer. He pondered which one to take. Thus I assume when you people say up the valley you mean the one taken by Reno.

I agree Benteen accepted the "recommendation" from the scout to go right.

So what I think you said is you think the correct COA is for Benteen to cross at Ford A and go up the LBH valley?

Clusters order sucks. But there are two or three specified tasks and one piece of information.

Benteen. Come on. Big village. Be quick. Bring pack. PS: Bring Pack

1. Link up with me.
2. Get up here now.
3. Bring the packs.

Oops. Big village. (I should have kept the Regiment together. My bad. )

The implied task is to follow the path Custer took north and which Martini followed South to find Benteen.

Sadly Benteen has no information about what Custer is doing. I agree that Ford B appears to be a logical place to cross. Custer has not thought about going to Ford D yet.

If Custer is trying to hammer and anvil the Indians, Reno is the anvil and Custer is the Hammer. You don't reinforce the Anvil. You reinforce the Hammer.

You say the correct COA is to go up the valley. (What Valley do you mean?). A COA that is not thought to lead to a win is not a valid COA. If he is going to have a BAD DAY (though he does not know it when he is thinking about which way to go) then that is not a valid COA.

I do not think the gunfire from Calhoun and LSH could be heard at the Reno position. I think they heard it as they approached Weir Point.

[quincannon]

1. Agree, you usually don't. That is why I was surprised.

2. The problem with all the times are that they present specific times for events that may not have happened, or that may have happened in a different sequence. Therefore the times themselves cannot be accepted as having much value, accuracy, or relevance.

3. Benteen heard gunfire in the valley. He did not know if it was from skirmishing or Reno's breakout. All he knew was that it was gunfire. That is nuance, but nuance takes on importance when you try to figure out what was Benteen's thinking and focus, as it relates to his mission.

4. Yes I understood that statement on gunfire heard by the Reno/Benteen joint force. That however had no bearing on Benteen's decision making when Benteen was in the Ford A area.

5. Martini probably wounded his own horse. Boston Custer reached his brother safely, which tells you that the area was clear to Custer's rear and the fighting with Wolf Tooth had moved much further forward.

6. Benteen had every right to think Reno and Custer were together. It does not matter if Martini told Benteen they had separated or not. If you suspect Ford B was Custer's intent, Reno's route and Custer's route lead to the same place, albeit from different directions. Benteen knew Custer and cavalry tactics well enough to divine Custer's intent.

7. Yes, Down the valley means down the only valley there was in the battle space.

8. Recommendation? I think it was more like get your ass up here because if you go there you will not come back.

9. No, What I said was that was the proper thing to do based upon what Benteen knew at the time. That changed when he saw the scouts waving him toward the bluffs.

10. There were no implied tasks associated with that order that would effect direction of travel (other than forward). Cooke told Benteen what Custer wanted and left it to Benteen to figure out how to do it.

11. You have not established that Custer intended a hammer and anvil, nor have you establish which one would be the hammer and which the anvil. Had there been open space at Ford B, and the village was between Reno and Custer, Reno, reinforced or not could have well been the hammer. Maybe I have watched too many Johnny Mack Brown westerns, but cut them off at the pass comes to mind here, block their escape route.

Once again I think you misunderstand. I am saying that going down the valley toward Reno was the correct course of action based upon what Benteen knew at the time. Time changes everything, including courses of action.

And I know that it could be heard. The hypothesis was tested about 40 years ago with period weapons. Additionally Lee could hear Ewell's musketry, from Hill's position three miles away, in the Wilderness of Virginia no less. I routinely hear small arms fire from the Fort Carson ranges about five and a half miles away. Weather will effect distance on occasion, but there was absolutely no reason Custer's northern fight could not be heard from the Reno Hill position.

[miker]

I am not at home but I want to respond to some things.

Michino I think uses 15 minute time intervals but it could be 5 or 10. I have to go back and look.

I agree the time estimates are too precise, particularly Warner’s. I characterize my estimates in ten minute increments with a +/- 5 minute allowance. I’m going to go back and remeasure and recompute.

Hearing gun fire. I certainly understand. I could hear tank and artillery fire ftom Fort Riley from my houses in Manhattan but it depended on the wind direction. I do not recall hearing small arms fire from home or even in my offices on post.

I heard very little noise ftom the DMAIN during desert Storm. I recall B-52 bombs, a Scud Warhead detonating near me, and some tank/Bradley fire as the MAIN tried to catch up with the battle.

Terrain can mask sound. I wonder which way the wind was blowing?

[quincannon]

The problem that I see with any time measurements is that they are event dependent. If you do not know what the event was, or if it even happened there is no way I can see that any valid timing calculation can be made.

As an example: If Custer actually went to Ford B, then there would be one set of timing parameters, but if he did not then you have an entirely different ball game. Again, if Custer went to Ford B, then it would be most probable the entire fight would have lasted longer than what some may calculate. The less events that take place the shorter the time that the northern fighting lasted. I do not believe we know what these events were (or were not) in finite enough detail to be able to make these calculations. It is not a matter of calculation of time expended to go from one place to another.

I pointed this out to Fred on numerous occasions, and he always took offense to the point of angry words. Making him angry was not my intent, any more than I want to make you or anyone else angry with my disagreement. I think the process is flawed. I believe Fred thought I was trying to bring a typhoon down on his parade, his life's work. Fred's "Strategy" was his ticket to LBH immortality in his mind. In my mind it was a generally good work, but still flawed by methodological malfeasance, a bridge to far, by trying to insert timing. I feel the same way with Gray, and anyone else that tries to bring this into print as fact.

[miker]

My time measurements were/are based on movement between points at different gaits walk - trot - gallop - charge. I'm interested in how long it might take to get from place to place and what events might fit in that window. then I can factor in delays due to enemy action. Maybe.

There are some events we know - like Benteen's arrival at Reno. Soon after that Godfrey said he heard volleys.

Since I have horse sense that precludes me from actually riding a horse, I use standard army values for speeds. I then use a +/- number to allow for topography and such.

So you are not going to see me saying Custer sent martini at a time, but I will provide values as to how long it might take him to meet Benteen. This is the value of Lakota Moon's time steps.

Thus if you believe an event took place at a certain time, then you can use my T=## to see how it fits your concept.

I don't get angry with people who disagree with me or question my assumptions or correct my facts. I do get angry when they don't answer my question or do not cite A source for their position. Statements that can't be attributed to a person, not differentiating between fact, opinion, and assumption, and nebulous terrain descriptions don't cut it with me.

I also never metaphor I liked. I don't usually understand them.

[quincannon]

Metaphorically speaking, Bush's Original Baked Beans with Arby's Horsey sauce and just a tad of real horseradish, mixed together and spooned onto Nabisco Saltine crackers, and a old fashioned Coke make a dandy lunch. If you don't understand that metaphor, don't feel bad, I did not really understand what I just said.

MAYBE is the second biggest word in the English language, IF being the first.

I do timing from place to place too. What I don't do is what Fred and Gray did, that being presenting them as FACT, even taking into consideration what Fred did with the inclusion of a fudge factor.

The primary reason that people do not answer your questions, mine, or anyone else's questions is that they do not have or do not know the answer. Somehow the world we live in makes it a shameful act to say "I don't know". That's wrong, and the societal norms that brought that about, should be dispensed with.

The thing that really irritates me though is when someone gives the shim, sham, shuffle, and jive for an answer. like Bear Cloud's mother's second cousin twice removed, the one with the hermaphrodite father and transgender mother, who shopped at Dillard's after work on Saturdays, and only consumed Putt's Death Burgers SAID. That is just pure crap. Everyone knows its crap, yet it persists.

The criteria should be: Who is that person, where was he, was he in a position to observe. If the answers to those three questions does not establish the person's bona fides, then that person is no damned good as a source. I am just fed up with all of these tribal stories, and confusing or obfuscating place locations. Tell me for instance, on that battlefield circa 1890 and today, what does "Hill where the stones are" mean. The whole goddamned place is full of hills and stones.