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Post by quincannon on Apr 12, 2016 2:01:40 GMT
And the Michno agenda is?
As memory serves, and I very well could be wrong here for it has been a very long time since I read him, then trashed his book or gave it away to my son, can't remember which, Michno concludes that the village was much smaller, that it did not venture more than a hundred or so yards west of the river and ended at MTC Ford, THUS the number of warriors that faced Custer was much smaller, giving more of a black eye to the Army that could not take on two or two and a half to one odds. Someone correct me if I am in error, and I darn well might be.
I would further venture to say that these Indians did not know Medicine Tail Coulee Ford from the dark side of the moon, by name, nor any of the others. To them one place to cross was just that.
The Cheyenne certainly made use of Ford D, and if the north end of that village was at MTC Ford (B). Why did they not cross there, as they were the northern most circle?
Circling to the north makes the most sense for a well mounted mobile force, if you want to make time, avoid the tyranny of terrain, place yourself where it will do the most good, and achieve surprise. A classic airmobile operation on four legged helicopters.
CH might very well have circled behind Custer and gone on to the Calhoun Hill are, dropping off some behind LSH as he went. Colt has one of those new Park Service Maps. My old one shows that movement splitting in the way I just described. Does the new one still show it?
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mac
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Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Apr 12, 2016 2:32:59 GMT
Can't vouch for the sources but here is an alternative. I used to have the Red Feather quote somewhere....more later.
They stopped along the ridge, the side of the ridge away from the river, and the Sioux on opposite side of same ridge, as far apart as to that flagpole (40 yards)Stretched along the ridge (on which is the monument now), there is a sort of gap in the ridge which Crazy Horse broke thru, cutting the line in two. - He Dog
"Crazy Horse rode between the opposing lines while blowing his eagle-bone whistle. This display of courage took place on the east side of Custer Ridge, near Keogh's location, where Crazy Horse later charged through a gap in Custer Ridge, splitting Keogh's battalion and causing its annihilation. The Oglala, He Dog, fondly remembered that everyone became brave when Crazy Horse appeared on the battlefield." – Red Feather
Agree that perspective counts. Gotta go. Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 12, 2016 10:45:50 GMT
Michno, writes rather well, but I disagree with the Cheyenne circle ending at Ford B. Several issues here. If the village ended here, this would have probably been where GAC would cross. Also there were several hundred wickiups located north of the Cheyenne circle. For the most part these temporary structures were not used by family groups, rather they were used by warriors who had joined after leaving the reservations. I have no means of transmitting the after action maps drawn by the Montana Column's folks, but those maps indicate that the circle extended some distance above the MTC Ford. The wickiups extended even further north.
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azranger
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Ranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 12, 2016 12:09:52 GMT
Just to throw something into the pot. When talking with Michael Donahue he believes that CH came up the Ford B drainage. He also believes that Custer did move north of LSH and toward the northern Ford Ds.
This year the Friends of Little Bighorn will have a field trip starting at LSH and moving north. Donahue will lead the tour. Should be interesting both in location and the discussions. I am reasonable sure Gerry will be there. Gordie's daughter will be there.
Crazy Horse ravine was filled to make the current entrance road. The older entrance road went through the current housing and there is a picture of Kellogg's marker along side the old entrance road in CH ravine.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 12, 2016 12:13:10 GMT
I agree that it is probable that the village extended further north as posted above, thanks Deadwood. As to Crazy Horse We know fairly well I think that he was late to the Reno valley fight and arrived as Reno was retreating. He is then placed moving back to the village and at some point making a right turn. My problem is that with a northern loop around LSH he must intersect with Custer and there is no account tying him to LSH. Previously I would have said he went up Deep Ravine and through the gap north of Company I. The problem here is accounts placing him south of Calhoun Hill (Michino the least of my concerns) which means he must go up MTC. Given that he arrives as the cavalry are occupying that hill I am now thinking he probably went that way. My thought now is that he then moved around to the east of Calhoun Hill. He knew the terrain and this is a way to move around the cavalry flank with little danger. Also this movement accounts for the time taken for Company L to reform lines as they slowly move up the slope of the Hill as suggested by the archaeology. At this point he can detect the presence of Company I in their swale. Now accounts of him using the gap make more sense to me. One tactical purpose of a bravery run was to encourage the cavalry to fire, as the warriors were well aware the cavalry were using single shot carbines and there would be an opportunity to close with them as they reload. CH makes bravery runs across the ridge through the gap blowing his eagle whistle. What if he rides east to west blowing his whistle and using the protection of passing through the gap to stop and u turn. He then returns west to east drawing fire as he goes. The whistle is a signal to his friends concealed close to Keogh's east (easy to do at that place IMO). They can chart his progress and will be ready to launch an attack when he stops whistling, using the reload of the soldiers to get to close range. Now we might see why there is a movement of NCO's to Keogh to assess the threat of the first run. Time for Porter to take some men close to the gap and these two groups isolated by the sudden coordinated assault from the east and possibly also from warriors seeing CH and following him up through the gap from Deep Ravine. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 12, 2016 12:58:29 GMT
If they were driven back towards Keogh, then how come that men from all of Keogh’s companies are found on LSH?
Two from C Company Two from I Company (four if you count the two couriers) Four from L Company
I would guess that if we work on the idea of Keogh holding the southern end with three companies and Custer with moving north with two, then any steam roller attacks would drive the surviving men towards Keogh and not the other way round.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 12, 2016 14:24:21 GMT
Quo Vadis Mac?
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 12, 2016 15:19:33 GMT
I think I know where Mac is going, he is looking at all avenues. I also don't think he is dredging up Debra Kerr or Robert Taylor.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Apr 12, 2016 15:39:16 GMT
Quo Vadis Domini, for you are in fact the Domini of the completely unexpected Tom. Indicates a firm grasp of the finer things of life.
I expect you are correct, but I am gratified that as we talked about, you do need to prime the pump for the water of discussion to flow freely.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 12, 2016 16:35:20 GMT
High School Latin, I did have to look up Debra Kerr.
Dave and I attempted to do so earlier (prime the pump)the lad is easily led astray.
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Post by Beth on Apr 12, 2016 18:53:48 GMT
If they were driven back towards Keogh, then how come that men from all of Keogh’s companies are found on LSH? Two from C Company Two from I Company (four if you count the two couriers) Four from L Company I would guess that if we work on the idea of Keogh holding the southern end with three companies and Custer with moving north with two, then any steam roller attacks would drive the surviving men towards Keogh and not the other way round. Yan. That's the thing about BLBH, you can speculate but you can never totally prove. Personally I know I tend to think that things happen linear because that is the way I organize my thoughts or relate events: Keogh gets attacked, men run to LSH to get away, get killed there. I know though events don't happen in a linear fashion--events can be happening all over the place at the same time. Perhaps all positions were attacked nearly at the same time and people ran in directions that they thought it would be safe only to find that there was no way out, especially if they had not way to see what was happening elsewhere.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 12, 2016 19:27:58 GMT
I must say Thomas that you have your Qui Vive mojo in fine tune the lovely afternoon, but having to look up Debra Kerr is somewhere between unforgivable and cause for eternal damnation.
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dave
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Post by dave on Apr 12, 2016 19:43:45 GMT
Beth Your comment "Personally I know I tend to think that things happen linear because that is the way I organize my thoughts or relate events: Keogh gets attacked, men run to LSH to get away, get killed there." Prompted me to look into the material posted below and the impact if any on LBH. Regards Dave Chaos Theory "Chaos is the science of surprises, of the nonlinear and the unpredictable. It teaches us to expect the unexpected. While most traditional science deals with supposedly predictable phenomena like gravity, electricity, or chemical reactions, Chaos Theory deals with nonlinear things that are effectively impossible to predict or control, like turbulence, weather, the stock market, our brain states, and so on. These phenomena are often described by fractal mathematics, which captures the infinite complexity of nature. Many natural objects exhibit fractal properties, including landscapes, clouds, trees, organs, rivers etc, and many of the systems in which we live exhibit complex, chaotic behavior. Recognizing the chaotic, fractal nature of our world can give us new insight, power, and wisdom." fractalfoundation.org/resources/what-is-chaos-theory/
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Post by Beth on Apr 12, 2016 23:56:46 GMT
Interesting.
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Post by Beth on Apr 12, 2016 23:58:54 GMT
Interesting. They have this graphic to 'play around with graphics. Funny thing is that it probably illustrates pretty good the movement of the NA out of the Ravines. Not that I am applying chaos theory to LBH but it was fun to play with. link
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