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Post by quincannon on Oct 7, 2022 14:29:21 GMT
I suspect that the Reno Hill area was the only place Varnum could have seen Company E, but that does not necessarily indicate that this would be the same place where several people in that valley (less DeRudio) say they saw Custer.
I would still like to explore the idea of Custer's personal (unauthorized) guidon being with Custer when he was supposedly seen on the bluffs from the valley. As I indicated above the guidon in the 19th Century served a few purposes, but chief among them were the location of the guidon, something visable from a distance, indicates the presence of the commander, be he commanding a company, a brigade, a division, or a corps. Considering that, and the guidon's use as a signaling device, it would stand to reason that the guidon bearer with guidon would be with the commander at all times. The same holds true for a company or regimental trumpeter. The guidon, and trumpet were the tools used in the Cavalry to aide the commander in command and control. That is the only reason the people assigned those tasks existed.
Now before some sharpshooter attempts to point out to me that the cavalry regiment in the 19th Century was not authorized a guidon, let me say that I am quite well aware of that fact. They were authorized a standard though which is a smaller version of the regimental colors carried by Infantry Regiments. I forget the size of the standard right off hand but can look it up if anyone is interested. The standard was used for the same purposes as the guidon in mounted (cavalry and artillery) regiments, denoting the presence of the commander, and signaling. I always make note of Custer's unauthorized guidon, but in this instance, him no longer being a general officer notwithstanding, it was probably a smart idea, in that the division commander's guidon he apparently used was a much better device for the purpose intended.
What I am getting at here is maybe the presence of that guidon was how Custer was recognized, specifically as Custer. No one ever mentioned the presence of a guidon that I am aware of, but that is not surprising. The presence of a guidon would be expected to be with the commander, and not unusual at all.
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Post by crowsnest on Oct 7, 2022 17:00:53 GMT
CN Ian, as usual, has given what I would think is the definitive quote. You might like to consider the timelines here. Custer has to leave the valley and move right after getting Reno's last message. So the Varnum sighting would be about right perhaps. In all your considerations I would suggest the timelines are vital considerations. Cheers
I think it's possible, and probably even more likely that Custer was already in transit up the bluffs before the last messenger arrived. By that point Keough and Cooke would've returned with the word from Girard that the village was attacking. (Which was premature and inaccurate at that point). I still think there is plenty of time for Custer to up on the bluffs getting his first sighting of the village before Reno is in formation and progressing down the valley.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 7, 2022 17:42:23 GMT
So what you are saying here CN is that you suspect Custer advanced forward to the edge of the bluffs, with the battalion column in trail somewhat behind him. That makes sense, and it accounts for bits of difference in the narratives as to where Reno's progress actually was. Good thinking.
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Post by crowsnest on Oct 7, 2022 18:17:06 GMT
Yes, that's the path I'm going down.
I think the standard timeline for Custer is too slow. I believe he was down MTC way earlier than most probably believe (of course since I'm in the minority here, I'll admit I may be faulty on this speculation). I just have a hard time believing Custer advances north if he saw Reno losing control of the battle. I think Custer had progressed out of sight of the Valley Fight prior to Reno falling back to the Timber at worst, and possible even before he had committed to the skirmish lines. Possibly only by minutes.
I think a lot more happened down on the Custer end of the battlefield before the Warriors headed there in mass. I'm not comfortable enough in the event to commit to what that was, but I do believe the timeline needs to be sped up.
I also think that more villagers fled to the SW than the NW, and that might explain whatever hesitation occurred on that end of the battlefield. But that's for another day and another conversation.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 7, 2022 19:24:06 GMT
There was a survivor from this period of the battle CN, but his account is open to scrutiny, but if you believe trumpeter martini's account then most of your answers lie there as by his own words he was by the generals side the whole trip.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Oct 7, 2022 19:31:41 GMT
God Lord old son, you do think for yourself. That's GREAT, and absolutely what this board is supposed to be about, and foster, independant thinking, unfettered by horse shit, and those who peddle it.
We are all in the minority, and that's too is a good thing. Pay absolutely no attention, in any aspect of life, to those who are asked to comment, and reply - Yeh, what he said. To much of that in this world.
I believe you are most probably correct. There are several time lines out there. Wagner has presented the most scholarly so far. He put a hell of a lot of work into it, but I think it, and all the others are off by quite a bit, maybe as much as twenty minutes of elapsed time. When you look at the mission Custer apparently gave himself, speed of execution is the salient factor. No one ever did a flanking movement that I am aware of in all of military history, where the march was slow and deliberate. You must move with all deliberate speed, or a flanking operation will not work. The key in such situations is to get in position to assail a flank before you can be detected, and your adversary can react. If they react, it is no longer a flank attack, it becomes frontal, as the enemy has positioned himself to address you.
I do not think Custer would move north either if he knew Reno was in trouble, UNLESS he was forced north and there is no indication of that. My speculation, is that Custer was beyond Calhoun Hill as Reno was moving into the timber. That makes sense,1) if you assume Ford B was blocked, or he finally saw the complete extent of the village, making any attack at B a non-starter, or 2) the aforementiond being forced.
I also agree with you that Custer's battle in the north had already reached the decisive point before anyone facing Reno came onto the Custer portion of the field. Those coming from Reno served only to block Custer's egress south. No one else is that comfortable either about exactly what transpired in the north, and those that say they "know" what happened are shoveling pigeon pucky your way. No frigging body was taking notes, and no one lived, that might give us a complete and reasonable explanation of the sequence of events or exactly where they occured.
Villagers are a subject that comes up quite often, and I do not have a clue why anyone would spend a moments time pondering the issue. It in fact is a non-issue as far as the battle went. It is absolutely silly, yes silly is the right word, to think that Custer's intent was to capture hostages. That would be something like sending two cops to control the crowd at the Super Bowl. Yet this myth continues. To your point though, going southwest to escape seems to me to be the logical thing to do. The Big Horns were the tradtional place of safety, and the Big Horns are southwest from the LBH Valley.
Damn, I have enjoyed this.
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Post by herosrest on Oct 8, 2022 19:36:17 GMT
Custer's guidon, where he and his command were sighted, who was sighted, etc So, i found my self once upon a time, flipping back and forth into participant accounts and most frequently, the military present. My memory is reasonably tight but it helps quite a bit to give source or a good pointer, so I did this - me being me, M Company dropped off the radar so i'll link it first M TroopThe Troops This pulls that boards items on participant troops into easy reach, with the stuff posted there. It's simply handy, in the way that Bruce Brown's Astonisher site with 100 or accounts used to be. You can thumb the info left by participants amid board comment. The timeline there is a good one. It's a useful resource but being as difficult as all these boards are and can be.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 8, 2022 21:10:59 GMT
HR: Those links carry you to Rini's board, my understanding of which, has reluctantly joined the Great Forum in the Sky, and Rini himself has found it wise to try to find his way through the tall timber, or so the rumor goes.
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Post by herosrest on Oct 8, 2022 23:36:29 GMT
I have just picked up on various issues risen across the boards and guess that popping those links is open to misinterpretation. I built the links to pull together topics relevant to company members. Articles are provided including guidance (text in yellow) relevant to a particular outlook and model of events. Inadvertent and unfortunate timing across the broader ecosystem. The board has been locked down rather than ceased and so is available to members. I had simply forgotten how deeply the divisions amongst factions of discussion, run besides the frustrations with not understanding why everyone doesn't understand what is obvious. You can walk a mile in 20 minutes. 15 at a push but not be worth spit when the you make that mile. On a horse you can cover 7 or 8 miles and do the same to the animal. That happens in battle sometimes. I believe the Custer fight was a brief affair and that it concluded by the time the last of the troops was killed. Added - The discussion board aspect of the internet is slowly but irresistibly shifting into modern mainstream and a number of groups now host considerable content on Facebook. I'm on mobile (cell) tapping away so give the direct link m.facebook.com/groups/459982074026290/It is member only access since attitude seems to have become a problem although this is often an excuse for a multitude of blissed joys. You might be surprised at the number of members, amongst them many old hands, and the volume of posts. Life is a changing. The past is as well. That's history.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 5, 2023 0:52:48 GMT
DeRudio: “It was on the highest point on the river bank, just below where Dr. DeWolf was killed… he was about 1000 yards from where I was.” Vanishing Victory It was a bit after Custer first got to the ridge near Weir Hill - a la Martin & Kanipe & Curley. Custer was on the 'highest point of the bluff but lower down the river then Reno's position' - Camp’s Weir Hill - near 1967's "3411" @1891's 3500’ mark at the bluff to the left of Sharpshooter ridge. Q. When was it you saw those men?A. Four or five minutes before Reno retreated I was looking closely to the right and the left expecting to see one or other of the battalions coming to join us. {varnum saw gray horses in cedar earlier then DeRudio states - ‘1/2 hour before retreat’,} DeRudio again A. I did not see any part of the column of General Custer. The only observation I made was while I was in the woods. General Custer, Lieut. Cook and another man I could not recognize came to the highest point of the bluff and waved their hats and made motions like they were cheering and pretty soon disappeared. I judge by that that probably his column was behind the bluff." Q. Where was that? A. It was on the highest point on the right bank of the creek just below where Dr. De Wolf was killed. Q. Did you see the place generally known as the point where Capt Weir went to? A. Yes Sir I saw it . Q. Was General Custer on that point?A . No, on one nearer the river and the highest point on that side. I saw General Custer where the river comes right under the bluff comes in very narrow there hardly wide enough for a horse to stand on in my opinion...
Q. About how far do you think it was from the point on the bluff occupied by Maj. Reno? A. I think it could not have been more than 5 or 600 yards . It was a higher point but lower down on the river. Q. How far was it from where you were to where you saw General Custer? A. I judge he was 1000 yards from where I was It was ‘Just down from where DeWolf was killed’ & ‘500/600 yards from Reno Corral’ - i.e Benteen's G spot. Where the “river is right against the bluff”...where & when Martin &!Kanipe & Curley say Custer first crossed 'the ridge' to the bluffs and saw (part of) the village and the men cheered. Custer was waving his hat and his men (below the hill) were cheering cause they ‘caught the village sleeping’. Like Martin said... Graham's Martin, 1922: "After we had gone about a mile or two we came to a big hill that overlooked the valley and we rode around the base of it and halted. Then the General took me with him and we rode to the top of the hill, where we could see the village in the valley on the other side of the river. It was a big village, but we couldn't see it all from there, though we didn't know it then; but several hundred tepees were in plain sight. There were no bucks to be seen; all we could see was some squaws and children playing and a few dogs and ponies. The General seemed both surprised and glad, and said the Indians must be in their tents, asleep. We did not see anything of Reno's column when we were up on the hill. I am sure the General did not see them at all, because he looked all around with his glasses, and all he said was that we had `got them this time.' He turned in the saddle and took off his hat and waved it so the men of the command, who were halted at the base of the hill, could see him and he shouted to them, "Hurrah, boys, we've got them! We'll finish them up and then go home to our station." Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 15, 2023 15:37:44 GMT
When he first got to the bluffs/Weir Hill and saw the village. The scouts concur - all Custer seeing and waving done just north of Reno Corral - i.e. Weir's Hill...around 3411 / SSR and/or what-not... Bouyer waving however... W.M.R.H. "Custer and his brother went to the right of us and halted on a small hill. His troops were moving forward below him. Custer turned around as he reached the top of the hill and waved his hat, and the soldiers at the bottom of the hill waved their hats and shouted. Custer then proceeded on up the ridge and his men followed" Hairy Moccasin "Custer yelled to us to stop, then told us to go to the high hill ahead (the high point just north of where Reno later entrenched). From here we could see the village and could see Reno fighting." Goes Ahead "Custer rode to the edge of the high bank and looked over to the place where Reno's men were, as though planning the next move. When they had arrived at about the point where Lieutenant Hodgson's headstone was placed later, the three Crow scouts saw the soldiers under Reno dismounting in front of the Dakota camp and thought that the enemy were "too many." Close to where Reno and Benteen later in the day were attacked by the Dakotas, on the ridge of hills above the river, the three Crow scouts were left behind and Custer's command went down the draw toward the lower ford on the run" De Rudio and Martin (and Benteen) we already visited and they agree....both showed Benteen the spot ("G"). As for Bouyer waving HIS hat, Curley via Camp... seems later after moving further down the bluffs (moving parallel with Custer who was out of sight moving north down South Coulee) - around Reno Peaks, just before Custer nears the river. Attachments:
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