When did Custer wave his hat?

[crowsnest]

We have multiple accounts of Custer on the bluffs waving his hat to the troops in the valley.  I've seen debate over where Custer was when this moment occurred, but I've never read debate over "when" this event occurred in regards to the Valley Fight.  Curious what everyone's thoughts are to when the waving of the hat, and disappearing behind the bluffs occurred.  

[quincannon]

I suppose I must always sound like a sinic, but truth is important to me. There is so much hocus pokus that surrounds this battle it is very, very, very hard to separate truth from fiction, reality from wishful thinking.

Having said all that, I do not discount that it was Custer, himself. It certainly could have been, but why wave the hat? Custer traveled everywhere he went in the field with his completely unauthorized ACW division commander's guidon. Lieutenant Colonels are not flag officers, but Custer being Custer did it anyway. The guidon in the 19th Century served a useful purpose. Today it is ceremonial, but then it was used for several purposes, chief among them for signaling. So, the question remains, why use a small object like a hat, when a larger, intended for purpose, device was close at hand.

Was it actually Custer? I don't know. Several people said they saw Custer, but it is a very great distance from the valley floor to the top edge of
the bluffs. So given the distance common sense tells you that it could have been just about anyone. CN, I doubt if you would recognize your own mother if she was waving to you in the valley from those bluffs. Then you must ask yourself if Custer was in a hurry, and most think that to be the case, why would he divert from the column, and go to the edge of the bluffs? Could not scouts or column flankers check on Reno's progress, and relay that information to Custer? Absolutely could. On the other hand do commanders like to see for themselves?  Most do.  I certainly did when the opportunity presented itself.

With the foregoing two paragraphs of mitigation being thrown out there for consideration, I think Custer probably did take a peek at Reno's progress from the bluffs. The most opportune time for that would have been about the same time Varnum (and a couple of others) sighted the tail end of Company E on the bluffs, and that would be at or in the general area of Bench Mark 3411. A picture from that location is provided to us in the banner photograph taken some years ago by Steve Andrews. Thanks to the photo you can see the area Custer saw, and what he saw is most likely Reno's battalion still making satisfactory progress, at the very beginning of the valley firefight. Now that does not give you the time of day, but you will be able from that discription insert it into the flow of events.

DeRudio also says he saw Custer but that was much later on. DeRudio has alternated between whipping boy and laughing stock for nearly a hundred fifty years. He was near universally disliked but that being the case does not mean he was having visions, or just plain lying about what he says he saw. Most likely he saw something during the waning portion of the valley fight, and before Reno broke out from encirclement, but it most certainly was not Custer. It is much more likely that he saw scouts, that had drifted westward away from Custer's column. That seems the most likely.

All I can give you is my opinion, but I have asked myself the same question you have asked here, and my answer is based upon what seems to fit what we do know best, at least it does for me.

[crowsnest]

QC…good stuff.

I’ve tried to look at the timing of this event logically. Prior to moving up the bluffs Custer had not had a visual of the village. I’m sure he was eager to see what the scouts had been repeating to him all day. I assume he made the move up the bluff while Reno is crossing Ford A. (He likely stopped for a bit to water horses, but I don’t believe he just sat at the north fork and watched Reno ford the river). It seems that he sent Cook and Keough to try to get a look down the valley during the crossing. One I’m sure was not good.

If Custer made his way up the bluffs while Reno is crossing and organizing his men (which was probably slower than we think) it seems to me Custer could’ve made his way to the point we believe he was at by the time Reno began his advance in formation down the valley.

It doesn’t make sense to me that Custer sat there for 10 minutes watching Reno advance the two miles and begin the attack. And I don’t believe he went to take a look twice.

What Custer needed to see was the village, to judge it’s scale, and to see Reno commence down the valley. I wouldn’t be shocked if Custer was gone from the bluff overlook before Reno had even thought about a skirmish line.

I have always guessed the hat wave was a “give ‘em hell boys” kinda gesture before the engagement took place. (Once the fighting took place who has the sense to look around for Custer up the bluffs) Custer saw panic taking hold in the village and that was good enough for him to begin his journey down river.

I truly don’t believe he would’ve continued down river with the idea of taking hostages if he saw Reno dismount. The initiative would’ve been gone. Custer heads down river assuming Reno would’ve faired better.

To me it’s the only thing that makes sense.

[herosrest]

I don:t have time to dig up the references and source material, sorry. Custer was seen by men in the advance down the valley in line and gallop before the halt to FoF. Several of the men saw Custer's guidon moving along the ridge of bluffs. There is nothing in the accounts to fix time or place. Gerard stated he saw Custer on the bluffs. I think this was the command or part of and it was testimony at the Inquiry. RCoI Chicago. There is confusion over the hat waving but I think it was Martini who stated this was made to the men of Keogh and Yates' battalions on the bluffs before they set off for MTC. Buyer was waving his hat towards Reno. Lt. Varnum saw Company E advancing across the bluffs. Lt. Hare and the Engineer Officer... drat.... Name.... Lt. Timekeeper, both told Terry and others of Montana column, on 27th June, meeting their march up the valley; that Custer was last seen moving along the bluffs. That info is specifically from McClernand and also others with Terry.

From what I have found, Custer did wave his hat. It was at his command on the bluffs and the rest is Trumpeter Martin derived scuttlebutt. DeRudio saw figures too far away to identify full stop, let alone reliably. He also spotted Benteen's company or companies to the east before they got up to Reno.

This makes some sense along the lines of an experienced officer in another fine mess and scanning the horizon. He was alert to his situation and what options were available. He also heard gunfire from further down the valley towards Custer, Keogh and Yates.

The hat was never recovered and is a matter of broad scuttlebutt disseminated through a century and a half.

There was a reasonably well publicised incident of Custer and his hat during ACW, so I guess Benteen tossed some barbs into the pot early on. Actually, I don't suppose it, he did. He thought very little of Custer and likewise pretty much everyone else and was somewhat spiteful which is how he was sent to follow Custer's trail and confirm reports of the five companies wiped out.

[quincannon]

Didn't do so bad yourself CN.

[yanmacca]

Not got long to write, Lt. Varnum saw E Company on the bluffs shortly after Maj. Reno deployed his command in skirmish order.

Gotta go, got a flight to catch.

Ian

[crowsnest]

Varnum also states that heavy firing was taking place down stream during the flight up the bluffs to Reno Hill. The timing of that doesn't seem to match very well with E still being on the bluffs when Reno is already deployed.

[quincannon]

I don't know how the hell Varnum heard firing down river if he was running for his life being chased by a bazillion Indians CN.

How far can you rid a horse in half an hour? Certainly the elapsed time between Varnum sighting Company E on the bluffs, and the last moments of Reno's breakout when he reached the bluffs was at least a half hour, maybe a little more.

I think Varnum may have said he heard someting. Others said so too evidently, but that was when things quieted down and they were engaged in taking stock of their situation as Benteen was arriving. I can often hear firing from Fort Carson small arms ranges which are a couple of miles from my house if the weather is just right. On a day like today though I could not have heard squat. Sound is both funny and fickel.

[mac]

Oct 4, 2022 8:53:01 GMT yanmacca said:

Not got long to write, Lt. Varnum saw E Company on the bluffs shortly after Maj. Reno deployed his command in skirmish order.

Gotta go, got a flight to catch.

Ian

Spain Ian??

[mac]

Good to see you back AZ!

[yanmacca]

Cyprus Mac, 80+ here, it was raining when we took off from Liverpool.
Just got back from a dip in the sea.

Ian

[yanmacca]

If Varnum saw e company before Reno started firing, then surely the column would have moved past Weir peak by the time derudio got into the timber.
The column was moving fast so they would be away from the edge of the bluffs.

I stick with my original thoughts and say it was scouts with bouyer

Ian

[mac]

Oct 5, 2022 9:58:07 GMT yanmacca said:

Cyprus Mac, 80+ here, it was raining when we took off from Liverpool.
Just got back from a dip in the sea.

Ian

Very nice mate. Enjoy!!

[mac]

CN

Ian, as usual, has given what I would think is the definitive quote.

You might like to consider the timelines here.

Custer has to leave the valley and move right after getting Reno's last message. So the Varnum sighting would be about right perhaps.

In all your considerations I would suggest the timelines are vital considerations.

Cheers

[yanmacca]

Some time lines say the spot which vanum saw e company was when they where crossing over reno hill.

Ian