Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2021 15:47:52 GMT
The John Stands in Timber (JSIT) Map is popular with the group because it appears to be well supported by JSIT's long term association with some (several, many?) Indian participants of the battle who took him to various sites on the battlefield and explained their actions and perhaps others known to them. He appears to have been able to mentally separate these accounts and was capable of combining them into a continuous narrative based on the information he had, but of course he was not a participant, nor a trained historian or cartographer. His narrative appears to be full of some of the problems people have with the way they express their memory of the terrain and the preponderance for describing their personnel actions rather than the actions of the tribe or group as a whole.
I have thought about this and my opinion is that this is not so different from what I would expect if we talked to the enlisted men of a battalion and not senior NCOs or officers. Particularly in an age in which there are fewer maps than you might find today in a US Army unit. If you talk to officers, they carry both a picture of what they and their command group are doing, but also of what their unit is doing. In thinking back on some of the training events I have taken part in, I can recount in my head with the assistance of the map, what my unit is doing but my picture of my own movement is not so clear. In some cases I could sketch an idealized sketch of what I remember happening, but in some cases am unable to find the battle area on the map, even when narrowed down to the small area of say the Hohenfels Training Area in Germany. If someone reminded me of the location either on the map or by taking me there, it may well snap into focus.
Nonetheless, JSIT is a second or even third hand source for the battle, but a very good one because he was taken to places by at least some of the participants so he knows what ford, ridge, knob, or high place they were at.
The point I am making here is, within the bounds of his abilities as an artist/map maker, his map is probably as good as McGuire's in terms of relative locations and his plotting of Wolf Tooth and his band is likely more accurate than McGuire's portrayal of Custer's movement because Wolf Tooth took him over it or at least to vantage points enabling him to see the terrain in focus.
As I was reviewing his Maps in Drawing Battlelines and also in A Cheyanne Voice and Bonafade's commentary on them, I was particularly interested on the paragraph spanning pages 246 and 247 of Battlelines:
There is a photograph of the proposed crossing site on Page 243 and captioned
This incident is also mentioned in A Cheyanne Voice.
I think JSIT is talking about it in CUSTER-HANGING WOLF'S STORY on or about Page 374, but I am not sure.
The conclusion here is that Wolf Tooth's and Hanging Wolfs stories appear to be confirmed (possibly) by both of them taking JSIT to the site and then artifacts being discovered at the site. Also it is important to note that artifacts discovered at the traditional sites of warrior deaths were also confirmed by metal detection and were instrumental in marking the death sites of Native Warriors.
Donahue states in his commentary that Godfrey's map indicates Custer approached the Willy Bend's Ford location, but I can't see it on the map or in Donahue's commentary on Godfrey's map in Battlelines. Perhaps someone with a sharper eye than mine can see it.
Godfrey's route on his map does not go down into Medicine Tail Coulee as the McGuire Map does, but skirts north of the head, perhaps indicating that McGuire did not get that impression from Godfrey. Obviously the artifact locations on the Bonifade map show at least some action in/near the Coulee.
So there we are...
I have thought about this and my opinion is that this is not so different from what I would expect if we talked to the enlisted men of a battalion and not senior NCOs or officers. Particularly in an age in which there are fewer maps than you might find today in a US Army unit. If you talk to officers, they carry both a picture of what they and their command group are doing, but also of what their unit is doing. In thinking back on some of the training events I have taken part in, I can recount in my head with the assistance of the map, what my unit is doing but my picture of my own movement is not so clear. In some cases I could sketch an idealized sketch of what I remember happening, but in some cases am unable to find the battle area on the map, even when narrowed down to the small area of say the Hohenfels Training Area in Germany. If someone reminded me of the location either on the map or by taking me there, it may well snap into focus.
Nonetheless, JSIT is a second or even third hand source for the battle, but a very good one because he was taken to places by at least some of the participants so he knows what ford, ridge, knob, or high place they were at.
The point I am making here is, within the bounds of his abilities as an artist/map maker, his map is probably as good as McGuire's in terms of relative locations and his plotting of Wolf Tooth and his band is likely more accurate than McGuire's portrayal of Custer's movement because Wolf Tooth took him over it or at least to vantage points enabling him to see the terrain in focus.
As I was reviewing his Maps in Drawing Battlelines and also in A Cheyanne Voice and Bonafade's commentary on them, I was particularly interested on the paragraph spanning pages 246 and 247 of Battlelines:
Custer's soldiers are the red arrows sweeping in from the east to Calhoun Hill, following the ridge, the descending toward the river a second time beyond Custer Hill. The Edward Godfrey Map shows a similar route. Near the Second and Third arrows of this advance is a small red square, likely representing the death site of a soldier who tried to escape the battle.
Small dashes near the river, as well as arrows from the village, show the brief fight near the timber. Custer's troops were repelled to the North and retreated back to the 'flats' in the National Cemetery or the superintendents stone house. The soldier's advance seems to be generalized as it does not advance to the river. Rickey metal detected the area after his interview and did find battle artifacts west of the bridge, indicating the soldier's advance was further than on the map and matches the oral account.
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...The blue arrows at right note the 'same 40 Sioux and Cheyanne' following Custer's troops as they advanced toward the Willy Bend's Crossing.
Small dashes near the river, as well as arrows from the village, show the brief fight near the timber. Custer's troops were repelled to the North and retreated back to the 'flats' in the National Cemetery or the superintendents stone house. The soldier's advance seems to be generalized as it does not advance to the river. Rickey metal detected the area after his interview and did find battle artifacts west of the bridge, indicating the soldier's advance was further than on the map and matches the oral account.
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...The blue arrows at right note the 'same 40 Sioux and Cheyanne' following Custer's troops as they advanced toward the Willy Bend's Crossing.
There is a photograph of the proposed crossing site on Page 243 and captioned
The Willy Bend's Crossing is named after an early Crow landowner who resided near this ford. Some of Custer's troops reached this ford, according to Hanging Wolf, but were driven back. The National Cemetary can be seen on the horizon.
This incident is also mentioned in A Cheyanne Voice.
3. Stands In Timber was the first to indicate to battlefield historian Don Rickey in the 1950s that battle action extended far to the north of Custer Hill, to a river crossing near the present highway in an area now known as the Willie Bends place. It has been proven that battle action took place northwest of Custer Hill thanks to archaeological research by Doug Scott and Peter Bleed in 1994. Donahue himself presented presented a groundbreaking talk on military action there at the Hardin Custer Battlefield Historical and Museum Association symposium in 2002, “Custer’s Move to the North.” Accounts of fighting in this area had long been disbelieved by scholars.
John Stands In Timber; Margot Liberty. A Cheyenne Voice (The Civilization of the American Indian Series) . University of Oklahoma Press. Kindle Edition.
John Stands In Timber; Margot Liberty. A Cheyenne Voice (The Civilization of the American Indian Series) . University of Oklahoma Press. Kindle Edition.
I think JSIT is talking about it in CUSTER-HANGING WOLF'S STORY on or about Page 374, but I am not sure.
The conclusion here is that Wolf Tooth's and Hanging Wolfs stories appear to be confirmed (possibly) by both of them taking JSIT to the site and then artifacts being discovered at the site. Also it is important to note that artifacts discovered at the traditional sites of warrior deaths were also confirmed by metal detection and were instrumental in marking the death sites of Native Warriors.
Donahue states in his commentary that Godfrey's map indicates Custer approached the Willy Bend's Ford location, but I can't see it on the map or in Donahue's commentary on Godfrey's map in Battlelines. Perhaps someone with a sharper eye than mine can see it.
Godfrey's route on his map does not go down into Medicine Tail Coulee as the McGuire Map does, but skirts north of the head, perhaps indicating that McGuire did not get that impression from Godfrey. Obviously the artifact locations on the Bonifade map show at least some action in/near the Coulee.
So there we are...
