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Post by quincannon on May 4, 2021 2:01:38 GMT
You might think so, but then again, none of those you named had the advantage of our (your's and mine) superior intellects as they relate to these trivial matters of common sense.
Regarding Mr.Lee though,I cannot comprehend how the same man could have conceived the absolute masterpieces of operational and tactical maneuver that were Second Manassas, and Chancellorsville, and at the same time been responsible for the two biggest operational and tactical goat ropes that were Antietam and Gettysburg
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Infantry
May 4, 2021 9:20:45 GMT
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Post by yanmacca on May 4, 2021 9:20:45 GMT
Thanks for the history lesson Chuck, that explains a lot. I always wondered how in Canada, a similar army under a good commander could execute a plan to make an amphibious landing, scale cliffs and beat the French on the plains of Abraham, but I guess Wolfe was another Nelson in that respect. 17 years later we lose the colonies! Being hemmed back in to Yorktown could have given the British an 1776 version of Courland but with the blockade, it turned into an 1776 version of Stalingrad!
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 10:01:25 GMT
You might think so, but then again, none of those you named had the advantage of our (your's and mine) superior intellects as they relate to these trivial matters of common sense. Regarding Mr.Lee though,I cannot comprehend how the same man could have conceived the absolute masterpieces of operational and tactical maneuver that were Second Manassas, and Chancellorsville, and at the same time been responsible for the two biggest operational and tactical goat ropes that were Antietam and Gettysburg I had to think about this for a while. When we started, the US had two levels of war: tactical and strategic. Corps were said to be tactical headquarters. Army and above were "strategic". Then because the Russians and the Germans had the operational level of war, we decided we needed it to. I deny the Operational level of war, but cannot marshall a solid argument. Bobby was a superb tactician. He was a lousy strategist. The Germans likewise are/were superb tacticians. They too are lousy strategists, at least from WWI to the present day. If Bobby was a good strategist, he would have adopted his in law's George's approach and lose his way to victory. The Germans get themselves in two front wars. Neither had the logistics train necessary to fight the way they wanted. In WWI, the generals pretty much had complete control. In WWII, the Germans let Hitler be in control. I guess today we are still pretty fair tacticians, up to say brigade. But we have somehow become bad strategists. I don't really know anymore about Division and Corps. They both want to be operational, but our leadership style does not support it with fear of mistakes and casualty intolerance. We persist in fighting along external lines at great distances on the Strategic and Tactical Offensive. I say we should fight on the Strategic Defensive, bur Tactical Offense, and play more emphais on raids, reprisals, and punative expeditions. This really belongs in the modern war thread you started,, so I am going to leave it here, and also post it over there
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Post by yanmacca on May 4, 2021 10:45:34 GMT
Mike, is this of any use to you? link
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Post by yanmacca on May 4, 2021 11:18:04 GMT
trust those Texacans to come up with this
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 11:55:06 GMT
Yes. But it is not Upton, which was in force in 1876. However, it is a clear evolution. I still need Upton's Cavalry Tactics.
It covers, like Upton, everything from school of the soldier to the division. Although it is about 15-20 years after Upton, it still has merit. It seems to bury infomration about skirmishing by echelon (squad, platoon, company, etc). Interestingly, the squad appears to be 12 people, led by a corporal who seems to be the #1 of the first four of three fours. but there appear to be only two sergeants, 1st and 2nd. Here they talk about the trooper keeping his horse instead of everyone passing their horses to the designated horse holders.
It will take quite a while to work through this. It is better than the 1921 drill regulations as it is closer to 1876. thanks very much.
Thanks very much.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 11:57:21 GMT
trust those Texacans to come up with this That;s wierd.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 12:25:18 GMT
The 1891 Troop appears to be composed of two platoons of 2 squads each. each Squad appears to be 12 men, in three fours, with 1 CPL and 11 PVT. There are 2 LTS, 1 Captain, ait looks like a 1SG and a 2SG, 2 trumpters, one Guideon, for a total of 53. It was raised to 100 after the LBH so it decreased, as we know. According to history.army.mil/html/forcestruc/usa-1890.html, the 1891 regiment was 10 companies with 44 privates, so that much seems to check out. In 1898, the regiment was restored to 12 companies with total strength of 104 (4 officers, +34 PVTs, and additional NCOs.)
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Infantry
May 4, 2021 14:38:19 GMT
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Post by yanmacca on May 4, 2021 14:38:19 GMT
I tried to find you any of the Upton's manuals, but failed Mike.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 15:41:16 GMT
Ian, it's no trouble. As I said, I've been searching for years for the Tactics Books. This book seems to have snippets of his cavalry book: smile.amazon.com/gp/product/091278315X/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 but I find the book overall dubious. He thinks the maps as presented/drawn were all deliberately wrong, and after you accept that, you have to accept a bunch of other conspiracy theories. Mainly on speeds and gates. This one two has snippets of all his book, but deletes most of the illustrations: smile.amazon.com/gp/product/1377176460/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1, but it is useful as a general reference to the period. It's a general handbook for students. This one is too early, but has some good information in it: smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CXUTYKC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_image_o01?ie=UTF8&psc=1As regards platoons. Upton doesn;'t seem to mention platoons at all. That 1898 one does, but then it skips from school of the soldier/trooper to school of the troop, so it looks like independent platoon action is not supported. I think the 1921 drill regulations mentinos platoons, but I wouldn't swear to it. So I think you are safe there still. And if the troop is too small, I don't think they use platoons anyway (not filled to capacity, casualties, etc.) For deep backgrund, I like this: smile.amazon.com/gp/product/0812217721/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 20:58:15 GMT
I today reached out to the Cavalry Museum in Fort Riley to see if they have a copy and how I can access it and the lbrary in Fort Leavenworth has a microfiche copy, so I if they have them, I have to go to KS.
It is available from several libraries. Looks like tomorrow I go to the library for an inter-library loan, if they will let it loose.
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Post by yanmacca on May 5, 2021 9:49:07 GMT
Not what you are after Mike, but I thought you might want to use this file in the future. link
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Post by yanmacca on May 5, 2021 10:01:01 GMT
How about this link! link
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2021 12:56:14 GMT
Thanks Iam.I've not looked at either site before, but I do have some of the references from them.
The artilce comparing Upton and Hardee was interesting. I knew from other reading, Upton was very good at building on others work and in some ways simplifying it, but he was not very creative himself, admitting he copied from others. But, compared to Custer, he was much more thoughtful. After the Civil War, he appeared to prefer writing/thinking than to command.
I like to think about how Buford, Merritt, and Upton would have handled the 7th at the LBH. Unfortunately, I don't think games help me much here with that. There are three things. Buford and Upton would have probably followed Terry's Orders. I don't think, beyond perhaps sending out a flanking force (like Benteen) they would have divided the Regiment. All of them would have had a better command climate. I don't have a coue if they would had the idea that the Indians would always scatter and that the 7th could take of anything buy itself. Upton was in Europe. Buford Dead. I think Merritt was in the SW. MacKenzie was someplace else, too.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
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Post by azranger on May 5, 2021 16:29:12 GMT
I think you should try some reenactor sites. I have one that was reprinted. I got it at a shooting event in Phoenix.
Regards
Steve
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