Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2021 14:23:52 GMT
DP | Who | Timeline | Location | Local Time | Clock Time | Event | 7 | Benteen | G | Vic No Name Creek
DD: -107.219 45.444
MGRS: 13TCL26573473 | 1228 | 1325 | After climbing 3 - 4 ridgelines, Benteen turns his command down no name creek to return to the main trial. |
Benteen has no scouts. Maps are crap. He really has no idea just where the Little Bighorn Valley is. He can't see squat due to the terrain's roughness. He hasn't seen any signs of recent trails or indication of anything else except he is the first sizeable group to go this way in a while. The horses are getting tired. Whatever is going on isn't happening here. Course of Action 1 Go to the valley after next after next Advantages
1. I'm following my orders. Disadvantages
1. Whatever is going on isn't here. 2. Horses and men are getting beat up. 3. I'm gonna be late to the party. 4. I have no scouts and I don't know where the Little Bighorn is. 5. I cannot offer or receive support from down here ***Course of Action 2*** Get back to the Regiment Advantages
1. There's nothing here. 2. I can probably pick up the regiment's trail. 3. If I get back soon enough, the Regiment can mass. 4. I might appear at a decisive moment. Disadvantages
1. Horses will continue to degrade if I rush. Recommendation: COA 2: Get back to the Regiment
REMEMBER TO VOTE Discussion: This is a no brainer. If he had continued on until he found the Little Bighorn and then turned North he would have been even later than he was and the horses would probably be blown. There are at least 3 ways back which would be likely to only wear out his horses and take even longer to return as he diverged more and more from the Regiment's path. In short, there is absolutely no reason to continue this way. Possibly if he had gone until he actually reached the LBH, everything would be "settled" and then he would be in a real sausage grinder. (Map on next post)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2021 14:27:15 GMT
Approximate paths of return routes back. Original route in Blue, alternates is yellow, red, and black. Each one takes progressively longer and it becomes impossible for Custer to recall him. Attachments:
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colt45
First Lieutenant
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Post by colt45 on Feb 6, 2021 15:07:34 GMT
Abandoning the scout when he did was the prudent decision. He determined there was nothing along the scout route that required his presence any longer, so he used his judgement to return to the main trail, which as history showed was the correct decision.
The reason for the scout was twofold: first, to comply with orders to "feel to his left", second, to make sure there would not be another Washita surprise. Benteen made the correct decision to return to the main trail when he did.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2021 15:39:25 GMT
Abandoning the scout when he did was the prudent decision. He determined there was nothing along the scout route that required his presence any longer, so he used his judgement to return to the main trail, which as history showed was the correct decision. The reason for the scout was twofold: first, to comply with orders to "feel to his left", second, to make sure there would not be another Washita surprise. Benteen made the correct decision to return to the main trail when he did. What strikes me about "feeling to his left" was Custer was supposed to do it as he went South along the Rosebud, so "left" was East. Now he is heading West, and left is "South". Probably a good idea in any event, but I don't recall any flank security while he was moving down the Rosebud.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 6, 2021 16:53:16 GMT
The mistake was sending Benteen's battalion out there in the first place, regardless of orders. Do you feel with your fingers or feel with your fist? Don't know about you fellows (and ladies) but I use my fingers. Five scouts with an NCO could have felt very nicely AND been fully compliant with orders.
Given Benteen was sent out with a battalion, he made not only the right choice, but the only rational choice.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 6, 2021 17:36:15 GMT
Yeah send out Herendeen with a few friends, if they find anything then report back.
Reno have scout group of around 12 to 15, mainly made up of soldiers.
Taking the Benteen battalion out of the main advance was a mistake along with leaving company B with the train.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2021 21:26:23 GMT
Fingerspitzengefuhl. Or Coup d'oeil.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 6, 2021 22:34:24 GMT
Fingerspitzenfuhl.
The only Coup that Benteen knew was a chicken coop. He was, after all in the Union Army
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mac
Brigadier General
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Post by mac on Feb 7, 2021 8:25:31 GMT
to make sure there would not be another Washita surprise. I agree colt, and it is what you must do if you have not done enough reconnaissance before you arrive. Also good to see Mike acknowledge that Benteen's speed was controlled by the condition of his horses. This is often forgotten!
Cheers
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2021 8:42:34 GMT
mac Well Mac, I am an armored cavalryman, albeit from a higher regiment (and one still in a tenuous existence as a regiment), even though our horses eat gas instead of hay, have first round hits, no snaffle bits, and sabers are passe.
A boy and his mount.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 7, 2021 10:33:00 GMT
Hi Mike, good photos, I bet QC has built one of those tanks in 1/56th scale.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2021 14:59:41 GMT
It's a M60A1 RISE. I have 3 models of those (D21/1/11 ACR, C66/1-34AR, A66/4-37AR), 1 M60A3 (C/66/2-37AR), 1 M113A1 (B21,1/11/ACR, 6 M151 Jeeps (B5/1/11ACR, HQ8/1-34AR, HQ4/1-34AR, C6/1-34, A6/4-37, C6/1-34), 1 M577A1 (B3/1/11ACR), and 1 HMMWV (HQ4/1ID(M) all in 1/35 scale, one for each vehicle I commanded. As well as various other ones. Most are in boxes now.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 7, 2021 15:34:37 GMT
I do indeed have most of them all in 1/100 scale. I lack the 577 and the 151.
Condition of the mounts: This seems to be another opportunity to beat one of my favorite dead horses (pardon the pun). I cannot see how you could compute the travel time, as Wagner has done in his book, for horses that are in varying conditions of fatigue. Mike could spur his mount regardless of how much fuel was in the tank, until it ran out. There would be no reduction of speed because of a low fuel gauge, unless he wanted to to conserve the fuel remaining. In a tank, the faster you go, or more rugged the terrain is, the more fuel you burn. So then the amount of fuel only limits how far you can go. Tanks don't get tired.
With horses it is an entirely different proposition. A tired horse cannot move as fast or as far as a fresh horse. Horses in a column such as a company or battalion tire at different rates from each other, just as we humans tire at a different rate. Therefore I can well see that you could apply a timing factor to a grouping of fresh mounts, then adjust that rate to compensate for the terrain they are traveling on. I cannot however see how you can compute the average speed of a column of tired horses, when each of those horses may, and probably do, have a different fatigue factor. Broken terrain, such as we are talking about here, only makes it a more vexing problem, that in my mind defies any mathematical formula you try to apply, and achieve any degree of accuracy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2021 21:40:51 GMT
That is one thing that bothers me about Fred's times and the other is their precision down to the minute. Right or wrong, I would round everything to the nearest five minutes, except for things like sunset/sunrise, etc or if some guy claims he looked at his watch at a specific time. I told him that and he understood. I won't go so far as to say he agreed, since he did it the way he did it.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 8, 2021 6:27:55 GMT
I know a few authors and others, place a lot of faith in time lines, I imagine they take a lot of of work. But I really only use them as a guide to where certain elements are at around a given time, for example, where Custer was when Reno broke out of the timber.
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