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Post by quincannon on Dec 7, 2022 19:32:34 GMT
Glad to be of some little help.
By the way the 91st "Wild West" Infantry Division that the 804th was attached to was a USAR Division and was originally drawn from the Western United States. I believe the division is still active in the USAR in some form or fashion, but not as an Infantry division. There are no more combat arms units in the USAR. Everything has been converted to either training organizations or combat service support. I will check on the current status of the 91st of the 91st and let you know. That may be a decent source as well.
PS: Is now the 91st Training Division and for many years was headquartered in San Francisco. The headquarters is now at Fort Hunter Liggett, right down the road a piece. There is also a division association, but I don't know how active that association is now that most of the WWII vets are gone. Most of them die out, the exception being those units that remain active, like the 10th Mountain Division association, which is extremely active here in Colorado
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Post by Elwood on Feb 11, 2023 16:41:58 GMT
Just to keep you informed, was getting a bit restless not hearing anything from the NG on this matter so called back a few days ago. Spoke to the historian there they were/are in process of converting from paper records over to computer. Probably a few boxes to go thru. He said he should be able to mail out what he finds within a week. He could not tell me exactly what was found until the conversion is done. Will keep you posted.
Related: was reading somewhere on the net several weeks ago, can’t remember where, didn’t save it; that the 804th and elements attached to it were the first American units to enter Rome. They entered in the dead of night tho and by morning were engaged with German units on the outskirts of the city. Meanwhile, other US units entered Rome and received a warm welcome by the citizens therein.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 11, 2023 18:46:11 GMT
Elements of the 804th entered Rome on 4 June 1944. Don't think it was the whole battalion though.
Most times tank destroyer companies were attached to other, larger units, typically one per Infantry Regiment, or Combat Command. It was rare, it did happen though, that something was attached to a tank destroyer battalion. Essentially the TD's were there to "support", not be supported. Problem then is that the larger unit usually gets all the credit, and the attached units are hardly ever mentioned. If you can get your hands on a publication that gives you the complete task organization of say the 115th Regimental Combat Team, or Combat Command R, 5th AD, that is one way you can tell. Another is check the U S Army pamphlet, (it's about two inches thick) that lists decorations. For instance, if the 115th RCT received a Presidential Unit Citation for action in Bubbaville, then all the units forming the RCT will be listed, thus providing you the task organization. Don't know if that Pam is on line. Maybe Mike knows.
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Post by Elwood on Feb 11, 2023 20:29:21 GMT
Elements of the 804th entered Rome on 4 June 1944. Don't think it was the whole battalion though. Most times tank destroyer companies were attached to other, larger units, typically one per Infantry Regiment, or Combat Command. It was rare, it did happen though, that something was attached to a tank destroyer battalion. Essentially the TD's were there to "support", not be supported. Well like I said, I don’t remember where I saw it. I’m an idiot for not saving a link. Very well could’ve been “elements of the 804th attached to an Infantry division”, or such.
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Post by Elwood on Feb 14, 2023 19:34:30 GMT
Well found out a few things. Was going thru thru after action reports for 804th on tank destroyers.net. They have monthly reports for battalions entire time in Italy. I had read thru them but not in great detail A few are barely readable but most pretty good. In March ‘45, Col. Rowell was injured when spotter plane he was in crashed upon landing. Now I dont know if it was regular practice for the battalion commander to be up in a spotter plane over enemy territory but Rowell himself wrote the report. His wording was “slightly injured”. Did not specify if it was result of enemy gunfire.
I do not know if this was what led to his SS award. I presented my findings to my girlfriend and she said she was also told he had engaged in hand to hand combat after his exiting a tank in N. Africa. This I did not know. I re-read the 804th’s history. Sure enough they were in Algeria training Free French troops on tank destroyers. The battalion itself did not see action but the site stated that some officers did go to the front lines to observe action. There are no after action reports tho. The plot thickens, I await to see what info the NG comes up with.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 14, 2023 23:40:36 GMT
Battalion commanders go up in spotter planes on reconnaissance, much more often than you might think. There is nothing better than seeing something for yourself.
Keep me abreast of what you find out. These human stories are what interest me the most. Real people fight wars, not the flat images you find on the printed page.
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Post by Elwood on Feb 15, 2023 3:05:47 GMT
Keep me abreast of what you find out. These human stories are what interest me the most. Real people fight wars, not the flat images you find on the printed page. Will do.
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Post by Elwood on Mar 4, 2023 16:39:35 GMT
Still no word from NG. I will call and pester him this coming week. I was able to find a more complete history of the 804th TD Battalion online than what was on tank destroyers.net. They arrived in Italy at Naples in February of ‘44 and were attached to the 88 Infantry Division, working with them for most of the Italian campaign. I read that Gen. Mark Clark was head of all American forces in Italy. What is your opinion of him? Done just a bit of reading. I know he was promoted to general at an early age which I guess rubbed a few folks the wrong way. Heard that Patton didnt like him. Of course I suppose Patton didnt like a lot of other brass.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 4, 2023 17:14:48 GMT
I don't know of anyone that liked Clark, except Eisenhower and apparently Marshall. Anyone that Marshall did not like went absolutely nowhere.
Clark was a very good troop trainer, and a very poor commander (in my estimation).
If they could dig the guy up and take him to Texas, the people of Texas would hang his sorry ass from the nearest tree. It has been three generations since the Rapido River and the people of Texas still revile him. I once knew a lady who worked at the Alamo Library, when the Daughters of the ROT still ran it. In WWII she was a nurse in Italy. The name of Mark Clark actually brought her to tears, thinking of all those 36th "Texas" Infantry Division soldiers that died because Clark could not get over the fact that he was not God.
Patton liked old time cavalrymen. That's natural I guess because that is with whom he most associated with during the inter-war years. I think the only reason Patton got any opportunity to do anything in WWII is because John Pershing loved the guy. Pershing of course was long retired, but no one in the Army cut a fart, including Marshall, Eisenhower, and MacArthur without Pershing's blessing. Ask yourself why no one had the guts to relieve Patton, which he deserved three times (by my count) over. No matter how good a commander you are, no one has the right to strike an American soldier and get away with it
There was no one in Italy that was better than Robert T. Frederick. Most were not fit to polish his boots. Look him up. Had it not been for an alleged affair with the Queen of Greece after the war, which effectively ended his career, he could have been rated as the greatest "pure" soldier in 20th Century America. That is my opinion of course.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 4, 2023 17:50:42 GMT
There's TD stuff on Archive.org and I clicked in random - 805 TD Naples - link film interview.
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Post by Elwood on Mar 4, 2023 21:26:08 GMT
There's TD stuff on Archive.org and I clicked in random - 805 TD Naples - link film interview. Yes, archive.org is where I found the (larger) history. Thanks for that link tho, didnt see that.
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Post by Elwood on Mar 4, 2023 23:05:06 GMT
I don't know of anyone that liked Clark, except Eisenhower and apparently Marshall. Anyone that Marshall did not like went absolutely nowhere. Clark was a very good troop trainer, and a very poor commander (in my estimation). If they could dig the guy up and take him to Texas, the people of Texas would hang his sorry ass from the nearest tree. It has been three generations since the Rapido River and the people of Texas still revile him. I once knew a lady who worked at the Alamo Library, when the Daughters of the ROT still ran it. In WWII she was a nurse in Italy. The name of Mark Clark actually brought her to tears, thinking of all those 36th "Texas" Infantry Division soldiers that died because Clark could not get over the fact that he was not God. Patton liked old time cavalrymen. That's natural I guess because that is with whom he most associated with during the inter-war years. I think the only reason Patton got any opportunity to do anything in WWII is because John Pershing loved the guy. Pershing of course was long retired, but no one in the Army cut a fart, including Marshall, Eisenhower, and MacArthur without Pershing's blessing. Ask yourself why no one had the guts to relieve Patton, which he deserved three times (by my count) over. No matter how good a commander you are, no one has the right to strike an American soldier and get away with it There was no one in Italy that was better than Robert T. Frederick. Most were not fit to polish his boots. Look him up. Had it not been for an alleged affair with the Queen of Greece after the war, which effectively ended his career, he could have been rated as the greatest "pure" soldier in 20th Century America. That is my opinion of course. Will definitely look into Frederick. Thanks for the recommendation. Read about a few operations in Italy ordered by Clark that cost a lot of American lives but achieved little if any strategic advantages.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 5, 2023 1:04:46 GMT
Churchill thought Frederick was the best American soldier ever. He was rare in that while he led Infantry, he led them in the most unconventional manner. By branch he was not an Infantryman. He was from the Coast Artillery, and as such had never fallen into the Marshall, Bradley, Collins mindset of it is better to do nothing than make a mistake. Not being an Infantryman allowed him to escape the Benning mindset, of slow and steady. He was anything but slow and steady. The Germans actually feared his troops. Feared I said, not just respected. They called them Black Devils, and at places like Anzio and Mount La Defensa that is exactly what they were devils that stalked the night.
Start your quest by reading "The Devils Brigade by Walton and Adleman, then "The First Special Service Force - War History of the North Americans" by Burhans. Reagan quoted from the later book while in Canada illustrating the close and enduring relationship between our two countries.
I might add that it is my opinion that the Rangers, as good as they were, were a bunch of pussy cats when compared to the 1st SSF.
You might also want to research Lucian Truscott, old time cavalryman and a first rate division, corps, and army commander.
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Post by miker on Mar 5, 2023 2:03:20 GMT
One thing I find interesting about the Tank Destroyer Corps is it was commanded, if not founded, by MG Andrew Bruce who later commanded the 77th Infantry Division in the Pacific which fought on Guam and Okinawa. The 77th was highly rated and apparently was referred to by the USMC as the 77th MARDIV.
Desmond Doss was a conscientious objector medic who was awarded the CMOH✓ as depicted in the movie Hacksaw Ridge was in the 77th. Today it is somewhat sadly the 77th Sustainment Brigade.
✓The only one awarded to a CO.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 5, 2023 4:27:18 GMT
Okinawa I think, although I think I would rather fight on Okinawa than live in Oklahoma.
The 77th was a first rate division in both World Wars, and was one of the first two of the Organized Reserve Divisions to be activated for WWII, the order of precedence being determined by WWI battle performance. The other was the 82nd Infantry Division.
Don't care if the 77th serves as the 77th Mess Kit Repair Brigade. The important thing is it is serving, and the lineage perpetuated. We could perpetuate them all Mike if we would down echelon from division to brigade. Make the army more mobile. I fear division as now organized are going the way of the buggy whip, still useful, but not as much as they used to be.
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