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Post by quincannon on Sept 30, 2016 15:45:24 GMT
I take issue with your - We never fought a war like that before.
That is exactly the type of war we have been fighting since 1945. The reason we perform so badly is that it is in our nature, yours and ours to want to fight Midway and Jutland, Crusader, The Ardennes, and Waterloo, when what's needed is the skills of the back alley knife fighter. The first is quick, relatively clean, and decisive, while it takes years for the back alley guy to establish himself. We lack patience, and that is why I say we must first take an inward look at ourselves, before the marching band plays too loud.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 30, 2016 15:46:44 GMT
Yes Chuck, I should have realised the thought of China turning against the west, remember the incident with HMS Amethyst. The Peoples Liberation Army showed no mercy and used the ship as a bargaining chip and claimed that we fired first, which we didn’t.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 30, 2016 15:54:51 GMT
We were forced to police Iraq with one armed tied behind our back, we were of course worried that our presence would attract every nut case in the middle east who wanted to reach Allah via a suicide vest.
The big difference to fighting insurgence prior to 1960, was the introduction of RPG-7 and the AK-47, up to then these fighters were equipped with anything from pitch forks to bolt-action rifles and petrol bombs.
These are very dangerous weapons which can knockout a tank and mow down any supporting infantry.
They also got smarter as fighters and the mobile phone became their communications network to co-ordinate their attacks.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 30, 2016 16:04:04 GMT
The biggest mistake made in Iraq was the disbanding of the Iraqi Army, and the dissolution of the Iraqi government. If you wish to make progress you use what exists, as imperfect as it may be, and even more importantly you retain in the defeated some semblance of national pride, as a foundation for them to build upon.
Yes I do remember HMS Amethyst, and I do not blame the Chinese one damned bit. It was their country. Who fired the first shot is not nearly as important as why the shot was fired. Couple that with the idea that if you tell a lie often enough, at least 50 percent of those hearing will accept it as true. Then consider when you are forced to defend yourself against a lie, chances are you are losing.
The struggle for the progress of mankind must be measured in the superiority of ideas, and at the same time keeping the reins of overreach well in hand. It is not measure in who has what, but rather in who wants what, and how orderly or disarrayed the process of obtaining it will be.
Know your enemy as you know yourself. Get down in the weeds and see what makes him tick, then go for the tick tock, for that is his center of gravity/ Then kill him without remorse, but also without hatred for him or his kind.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 30, 2016 16:11:39 GMT
Well I agree with you Chuck, we should have used the Iraqi army in a similar way to how we used the Japanese army after they surrendered in 1945, I cannot remember the details or which country it was, but we used then as a police force to keep the peace.
The Germans did a similar thing in WW2, they simply let the Yugoslavian army go home and take their rifles with them, this of course came back to bite them on the ass when they turned into a ready trained and armed partisan force.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 30, 2016 16:19:37 GMT
And you would have thought we would have learned from both of those experiences you cited.
Strategists and the military if they are any damned good must both read and absorb history, and a novel or two like Sandpebbles, and Rifleman Dodd along the way.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 30, 2016 16:36:17 GMT
But that’s it, we don’t learn anything, it doesn’t matter if it was a naval vessel or Steve McQueen and his BAR, if they want to kill you because you are on their turf or water then we have to accept it.
We perceive this as an act of aggression on their part, but our leaders put those men in danger in the first place by having them stationed there.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 30, 2016 17:05:30 GMT
The truth is Ian that very succeeding generation pays for the sins of those that came before.
Again without being political, looking only at the statement itself, we have a presidential candidate who recently said that when we left Iraq we should have taken the oil. That is all well and good, and it was said without any explanation of how that impossible that task would be to carry out. Impossible or not, what would the long term ramifications be of such action. Lets say we found a way, and we left a country that is then nothing more than burned over desert, the home to millions of people, without the only resource and source of national income they have. What do you think the attitude of those people toward the west would be for hundreds of years thereafter? They would hate us, and try with every means at their disposal, as limited as it might be, to exact their revenge. Would not blame them one damned bit.
That is exactly what the attitude of the Chinese is toward the west today. They have not recovered from that period of western exploitation, and hate us down to the ground for it. We caused it ten generations back, yet we look at them as to why we have an adversarial relationship with them.
We are today reaping the whirlwind of colonial empires, and exploitation. We are all to blame, every damned one of us. In many ways we deserve what we get. We must first find a way to mitigate the damage done, then reverse the course. So far we ain't doing so good, and the reason for it is the same reason we can't seem to get dandelion out of our back yard (gardens in the mother country). We pick those sons of bitches from the grass, but pay no damned attention to the ground they grow in and thrive, so tomorrow there will be more to replace those we picked today.
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Post by Beth on Sept 30, 2016 21:28:15 GMT
I remember in the very early 1960s being just a little kid and hearing the grown ups talk about how Germany got all the help it needed to get up and running again. Which I suppose was right, but apparently it did not go down to well over here, as the allies won the war but the people in Britain were still on really low rations and lived in bombed out streets. It was a hard time which was made harder by the influx of demobbed men who had no jobs to go to. My eldest Sister who is nearly eighty said that she saw her first banana years after the end of the war. I wonder if that was why my dad stayed on in the army for another fourteen or so years, as there was no work in civvy street. I am just going to make a quick comment on this and perhaps we should just move your post and this to the WWII thread if there is an interest in further conversation. One of the largest cause of WWII was the reparations after WWI and no one wanted to see that repeated. At the end of II Germany especially had to be rebuilt to prevent someone even more undesirable stepping into the void, especially with the Werwolf movement being active. It probably wasn't right that more wasn't spent to rebuild other allies (I am assuming the situation was just as bad for European allies) but we should haves don't really change anything.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 1, 2016 3:55:07 GMT
I can't let that stand as is.
Three. Two Nine Seven Billion in Marshall Plan aid was sent to Great Britain during the years 1948 to 1951 under the Marshall Plan. The plan looked at Western Europe as requiring aid, not just Germany.
Still, I can fully understand Ian's point, in that throwing money does not mean a nation can instantly rebound. When entire infrastructures are destroyed they do not become whole overnight.
One member of this board was in Germany during this period. I am sure he can share stories with us, that back up what I just said.
When Joan was in Germany in 60-64 things were much better, but still not what one would consider "normal"
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Post by Beth on Oct 1, 2016 5:46:47 GMT
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 1, 2016 9:34:31 GMT
Thanks Beth, that link only goes to prove how politicians work, as they received that loan of the US which was basically made to help the British people recover and then squandered it, so by the looks of it my family was right that the normal person on the street saw jack sh*t of that cash and the powers that be used it in other ways to further British aims as a global power.
I bet all the top politicians and their ilk, all had money, food on their table and a nice house plus a car.
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Post by Beth on Oct 1, 2016 9:49:56 GMT
Thanks Beth, that link only goes to prove how politicians work, as they received that loan of the US which was basically made to help the British people recover and then squandered it, so by the looks of it my family was right that the normal person on the street saw jack sh*t of that cash and the powers that be used it in other ways to further British aims as a global power. I bet all the top politicians and their ilk, all had money, food on their table and a nice house plus a car. I expect you are right Yan. They probably even had a house in the country. I can understand the PTB trying to protect the way things were before the war, it's kind of natural to want to go back to a time that was happy and successful. I don't think there was a single country that didn't realize exactly how much WWII changed everything. Is still changing things.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 1, 2016 9:51:43 GMT
Good morning Beth, or should I saw good evening?
I don't usually see you this early, the first on line are Steve and Tom.
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Post by Beth on Oct 1, 2016 17:36:07 GMT
Good morning Beth, or should I saw good evening? I don't usually see you this early, the first on line are Steve and Tom. You saw me that early because of a case of insomnia unfortunately. I'm working on short sleep today because of a heavy errand schedule after Kid 2 finisher her SAT test today so hopefully I will be back on a normal schedule soon.
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