dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Jul 27, 2016 2:46:06 GMT
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Post by quincannon on Jul 27, 2016 16:07:31 GMT
Just like the average house the Alamo changed considerably over its hundred or so year history prior to the siege.
The rough outlines of the plaza itself are fairly well known, them being from what I refer to as the giant flower bed on the south end to the post office lobby on the north, and from the businesses on the west side of the current plaza to the existing long barracks/convent on the east.
I would love to know exactly where this discovery was made. Unfortunately the story does not tell us. My money though would be that it is part of some native dwelling, either just inside or just outside the plaza walls. The plaza walls were built with limestone and covered with adobe plaster. You may see that type of construction revealed at San Jose mission just outside SA on Roosevelt Blvd. Most of the adobe plaster has come off there, revealing what lies beneath. Limestone is plentiful in the SA area, and you see it used in construction of nearly all the highway overpasses and such. You also see where it had been pulled from the ground in many places as you travel around the I410 Loop. I think there is a fair share to be had up in the Austin area as well, which I will let Beth speak to.
Native structures on the other hand were built much more crudely, adobe brick, thatched wood, and straw, and all tended not to stand the test of time
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Post by Beth on Jul 27, 2016 19:22:20 GMT
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Post by quincannon on Jul 27, 2016 20:28:40 GMT
It appears to be near the southwest battery, inside the plaza compound, and where the steps that go down to river walk exit off the plaza. Being on the present sidewalk, my speculation is even stronger that it is an inside the compound building, that was most probably in ruins at the time of the siege. The southwest battery itself, which mounted the largest gun within the Alamo, was built on such a ruined structure, by simply filling in the ruined walls with dirt, then constructing a ramp to a raised platform built on top of the whole affair.
After the battle all of the plaza walls were torn down by the Mexican Army so the place could never be again used as a makeshift fort. Several buildings were not destroyed though, and were still in use throughout most of the 19th century. There are photos of them still standing in later years. Two of them remained along the west wall, and where the big flower pot is, that building also remained and was used as a jail for some time.
Please keep in mind as you consider these things that the Alamo was not a mission up until the time of the siege. The mission (San Antonio de Valero) was really a failure when compared to the other four. When San Fernando Cathedral was built in San Antonio about a mile or so away, the mission was abandoned by the Catholic Church, who still owned it but did not use it. After that, for want of a better word squatters moved into the plaza area, and the adjoining Plaza de Valero, which is south of the flower pot, all the way to the Alameda (present Commerce Street). They built all sorts of shacks, commonly called Jacales, throughout the area. It would be what we call today, the other side of the tracks, the poor section of town, poverty row. There was also a military presence there from time to time, the most prominent of which was The Flying Company of Alamo de Parras, from which the place took its name. These were the Mexican version of the Texas Rangers and Border Patrol.
To anyone interested in this era, especially the archeology I would suggest Nelson's book. Can't remember the name of it off the top of my head, and I have far too much to do this afternoon than going to the basement and rooting through my shelves. The book is available at the Alamo Bookstore, which sells on line.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jul 28, 2016 0:19:13 GMT
I knew you would be all over this Chuck. Interesting stuff! Should I ever have the pleasure of another trip to the US the Alamo is on my list. Interesting how much modern archaeology can tell us.
Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Jul 28, 2016 4:38:33 GMT
Mac: The Alamo is one of those seminal stories of American history, that embodies what it means to call yourself American.
People in this latter day make a great show of pro slavery motivations. Still others use the Alamo as a poster child for racism of a different sort. Neither of these types have the common sense necessary to pee in a toilet.
When you look at those men who stood their ground, they represented nearly every western nation on earth, including quite a few Hispanic Mexican citizens who valued the principle of self determination, more than they valued their own lives. They were just like all of us, not a hero in the bunch, but together they defined who we all are. We are near unique in that there are no ethnic Americans. It is not a test of DNA. It is a test of values. If I may say, much like your own country.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jul 28, 2016 12:50:53 GMT
"10 things that will change at the Alamo in 2016"
from mySA website Monday, February 15, 2016
5. The outdated men's and women's bathrooms will be updated and a unisex bathroom is on the way. Good to know that the Alamo is keeping up with the times!
Regards
Dave
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jul 28, 2016 12:51:11 GMT
You may say QC. Along the same lines in terms of historical development of my nation was the Eureka Stockade; a rebellion by gold miners about taxation through licencing and heavy handed goverment and police enforcement. www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/australian-story/eureka-stockadeOut of this incident came the realisation that whatever our origins we must all work together if we are to succeed and the determination that their would never again be blood on the wattle. (Golden Wattle. Acacia pycnantha. (plant family: Mimosaceae). Floral Emblem of Australia). Interestingly the first eureka stockade defender tried was an American (John Joseph, a black American from New York City or Baltimore, United States) as the government were confident that an Australian jury were likely to convict a black man (some things are hard to change) and that if they got the first conviction the others would follow. He and all the other 11 tried were acquitted by their peers. A proud moment for democracy and the right to fair treatment. Cheers |
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Post by quincannon on Jul 28, 2016 14:24:20 GMT
I was familiar with the Eureka Stockade, having seen a movie about it many years ago. It gives the phrase "Under The Southern Cross", so familiar to the U S Marine Corps, all new meaning. For Australia, and for your brothers here, the Eureka Flag must stand beside "Don't Tread On Me" and the other symbols, worldwide, that the march of mankind toward equality and the God given right to determine their own destiny, without fear, and with the continuing promise of hope, never dies.
These are the things that renew our strength in troubled times, inspire us to go ahead when, when the road ahead is strewn with rocks and mortal danger, to stand, when it is so easy to remain seated, to believe when all about us fall into disbelief. These are the symbols of what is meant by being free.
Our Battle Hymn in its second to last line says it best, at least it does for me " He has died to make men holy, let us live to make men free"
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Post by Beth on Jul 28, 2016 17:26:49 GMT
"10 things that will change at the Alamo in 2016" from mySA website Monday, February 15, 2016 5. The outdated men's and women's bathrooms will be updated and a unisex bathroom is on the way. Good to know that the Alamo is keeping up with the times! Regards Dave Evidently they don't believe into rushing into things. I was regularly using the unisex bathrooms when the girls were young close to 20 years ago and found them to be a godsend. |
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Post by quincannon on Jul 28, 2016 23:59:17 GMT
In principle there is no difference in not having bathrooms open to all, then there was in having "white only", "colored only" of a bygone day.
Equality under the law is a moral imperative.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 29, 2016 15:31:19 GMT
All of this goes far beyond bathrooms. Writ large it means equal access to all across the board.
We, at my church have just collected more than a million and a half dollars that is being used to update a one hundred and fifteen year old building so that everyone can have equal access, so that everyone can worship without the stigma of what situation they may be currently in effecting their ability to do so. There was no requirement for us to do this, in that we are grandfathered under the law as a non-profit. There were many hurdles to be vaulted in that we are on the register of historic places, which meant that we had to do it, but still keep the historic property whole, adding greatly to the expense. I am sure what we went through is similar to other such situations, although it probably does not apply to the Alamo, in that as I recall access to the historic buildings on the compound is relatively easy except in one place, at the side door of the Chapel.
We are in the business of welcoming at our church. As one who is deeply involved in that welcoming, it is pretty damned hard to make someone in a wheelchair welcome when the only way for them to enter, was down a pathway into the side of the building lined with Dipsy Dumpsters. What welcome message does that convey? It is pretty hard to make someone feel welcome if you strew the obstacles of dimly lighted steps in the path of people who must depend on a cane or a walker for their mobility. It is somewhat bass ackward to invite someone to after mass fellowship when you know damned well that the infirm cannot participate. You cannot further the education into the faith we share, if there is no way for some, ranging from the disabled child to the ninety year old, if they cannot climb the staircase to the second and third floor classrooms. How many do you think may be staying home, rather than subject themselves to this indignity in the House that God Built? When we diminish or ignore the one, we diminish and ignore all.
And the same is true when we subject anyone to any indignity for any reason in God's House. We are not in the judgment business. We are in the business of helping folks in life's journey.
Likewise, this country is not in the judgment business. We are in the freedom and equality business. It was for these two reasons we were founded. It was for these two reasons that those in the Alamo, among a multitude of others, stood their ground. It is for those two reasons, that we must then lead the world toward those goals by the power of our example.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jul 29, 2016 15:48:49 GMT
Having lived in an area where "White Only" was not only the rule it was also the law, I still vivid memories of injustice done to a race of fellow humans. This was a vicious policy that has caused long term angst and suffering for people of color and shame for whites.
The issue of using which ever restroom facility one chooses regardless of gender hardly has the same impact in my opinion. I can only speak about the reactions of my wife to the concept of a man using the Ladies if he is feeling feminine that day and not being a transgender person upsets her greatly. She has this old fashion sense that a woman should be permitted privacy when attending to personal matters. Her belief being that woman do not film other women in dressing rooms and bathrooms with only males acting so.
If a transgender individual uses the facility they identify with without any notice as they have been doing for years by being dressed for which ever side they choose this would not be an item of contention. Men dressed as men going into the Ladies causes problems and I agree with my wife this is wrong and has nothing to do with equality under the law.
Regards
Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jul 29, 2016 16:25:29 GMT
Have you ever seen a man, dressed as a man go into a ladies room? Have you ever seen a woman dressed as a woman go into a men's room? I mean YOU, have you ever seen one, not heard about it, or read of it in the newspaper, I mean have you personally witnessed it. I have not.
As I understand it, the transgender person adopts the gender they feel comfortable with. They adopt it all the way, so the probability of you seeing something that makes real your fears range from pretty darn low to non-existent.
How would you feel if they were the norm, and you the exception? That is the true test.
Were you to come back to this earth a hundred years from now, your grandchildren's children would think you would be the abnormal if you expressed your current views to them. It might not even be that long. It may very well be them who point to you and say - It was a vicious policy that has caused long term angst among the transgender, and shame for all others. Same thing that you have said today about the views of your grandparents and for that matter mine. Sixty years ago I shared those views, and my Damascus Road experience came driving across Texas, when some fairly well known fellow came on the car radio saying - do not judge by who someone is, but rather by the content of their character.
I can be as judgmental as the next guy, and probably more so than most, and I say to you here and now that any man dressed as a man, or woman dressed as a woman that enters into a bathroom inappropriate to how they present themselves is dead wrong, for that act is for the expressed purpose of making another feel uncomfortable. It is for that flaw of character that they should be judged. I highly suspect, no I fully believe, that the vast majority of those who are transgender would never even think of doing that, for like the vast majority of all people, they too are of good character. |
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jul 29, 2016 16:43:41 GMT
QC
I was the director of the Ole Miss Student Union which abuts into the 10 acre Grove the mecca of tailgaters the world over. On Saturdays in the Fall football games occur on campus. We have over 60,000 people converge on campus and yes I have had drunks of both sexes use the wrong restrooms and had to deal with the problem myself. This has nothing to do with your question as it is an exception. Other than having drunks in my facility I have not seen men use the Ladies.
This issue has taken over the thread about archaeological findings at the Alamo and so should be dropped. You and I are talking past each other as I have no problem for a transgender individual who lives life and dresses as a woman using the Ladies. I do have problems with males, not transgender, who enter and use women's changing rooms and restrooms for prurient curiosity, all the while claiming they are feeling feminine that day. You know as well as I do this has happened and will continue to do so as long as they have access to the Ladies. This is what upsets my wife and many other women. Sadly the old expression "boys will be boys" is accurate and will continue.
Regards
Dave
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