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Post by yanmacca on May 13, 2021 19:24:27 GMT
When a new poster opens these old threads, it brings up passed members like David, one of the founders of this site. His post at the top of the last page is from March 2016, how time has passed, he will always be one of us.
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Post by quincannon on May 13, 2021 19:26:01 GMT
RT I was not referring to you saying "last messenger". Numerous articles have said that well before your time on this earth, unless you are 145 years old. I read one just fifteen minutes ago written in 2011 that called him that.
Anyone under these circumstances is likely to come under a cloud of suspicion. Like Mike, were it mine to decide I would not have sent an NCO back with what would really be a routine message. There are times when an NCO or Officer would be the only proper choice, but not for this one. For instance, the speculation that Butler was sent as a messenger, does make sense, in that Butler being an experienced NCO could tell Benteen or Reno just what the situation was up north, and had he gotten through, could have given these two officers valuable information upon which to base their decisions. It's probably a good thing that Butler never made it, but that's another story.
Kanipe's tale is plausible, and in my view, only suspect around the extreme fringes. Valor and Virtue.
Some things can never be known, and it is foolish to try, but that does not stop some. Always beware of ANYONE who tells you they know what happened at Little Big Horn. They are lying to you, and to themselves.
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Post by yanmacca on May 13, 2021 19:33:09 GMT
That is why Martini's story has merit, he was a trumpeter thus being on hand to deliver messages. He claimed he was with Custer all the way, which would mean he was in the headquarters as an trumeter/orderly. When Company C took to the field that day, they had four line Sergeants, one was detached to the pack train, that left three, so sending a sergeant would leave them down to two.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on May 13, 2021 19:46:26 GMT
On the other hand, Tom Custer, would "probably" expect Kanipe to rejoin the company at some time during the battle.
Please everyone, always remember that when someone does something, they always have a reason, which at the time seems to be a good reason to them. It may not turn out that way, but that is the way we humans are. To understand battle, you must first understand that it is people who fight battles. We are no different in our reasoning in battle, then we are in choosing what brand of baked beans and hot dogs to serve at out Memorial Day picnic. With baked beans and hot dogs the decision is surrounded by the reasoning of is this brand the best, or most affordable. In battle the reasoning is surrounded by is this man my best choice, and can I afford his absence for a short while.
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Post by rollingthunder on May 13, 2021 20:01:00 GMT
Thank you very much everyone for your answers. At least I have shaken the hornet's nest.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2021 20:07:27 GMT
On the other hand, Tom Custer, would "probably" expect Kanipe to rejoin the company at some time during the battle. Please everyone, always remember that when someone does something, they always have a reason, which at the time seems to be a good reason to them. It may not turn out that way, but that is the way we humans are. To understand battle, you must first understand that it is people who fight battles. We are no different in our reasoning in battle, then we are in choosing what brand of baked beans and hot dogs to serve at out Memorial Day picnic. With baked beans and hot dogs the decision is surrounded by the reasoning of is this brand the best, or most affordable. In battle the reasoning is surrounded by is this man my best choice, and can I afford his absence for a short while. THIS! Cooke told Martini to return if he thought it was safe, otherwise stay with his company. Both messengers to Benteen returned to Custer. I find it curious Reno's messengers to Custer were not returned. Now that is a real mystery!
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Post by quincannon on May 13, 2021 21:35:10 GMT
Well RT, don't be a one answer wonder. Stick around, you ask good questions, as defined by any question that makes someone think and research.
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Post by yanmacca on May 14, 2021 5:30:37 GMT
Mike, both those messengers were company I, troopers and both where found dead around LSH, and as you know Keogh and I Company mainly fell on the east slope of battle ridge, so maybe these two trooper/messengers remained with Custer in case he needed them.
I can't find any reference to Kanipe being ordered to return, but it was a battle zone and things may not register, as in one interview Kanipe states that Custer only took four companies with him and company L was not in the line.
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Post by rollingthunder on May 14, 2021 10:35:31 GMT
Well RT, don't be a one answer wonder. Stick around, you ask good questions, as defined by any question that makes someone think and research. OK, thanks a lot. I will keep asking things that make me think but that I cannot visualize for myself
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2021 12:02:32 GMT
Mike, both those messengers were company I, troopers and both where found dead around LSH, and as you know Keogh and I Company mainly fell on the east slope of battle ridge, so maybe these two trooper/messengers remained with Custer in case he needed them. I can't find any reference to Kanipe being ordered to return, but it was a battle zone and things may not register, as in one interview Kanipe states that Custer only took four companies with him and company L was not in the line. Ian, The point of the no return, is Custer did not send Reno any orders/information in return. Reno was saying, Boss. This ain't right. I need help. Custer owed Reno a reply, instead Custer did nothing. He coulda/shoulda sent a messenger back saying you fix them I'll come in from the flank. Then Reno may have acted differently. Defending the timber longer. Or not. A senior commander's duty is to provide combat power/support to his subordinates.
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Post by yanmacca on May 14, 2021 12:49:51 GMT
Hi Mike, Custer took it on himself to try and force an opening to the north. Reno was too far away for him to assist, so if any presence was made at ford B, would be to draw warrior's from Reno and maybe the north too.
The two messengers he received from Reno, had done their work. So Custer would be so focused at that point and never sent them back to either their company or Reno.
I can't recall ever reading what Reno said these messages contained plus I don't recall where Custer was on the trail when he received these messages, but it must have been before Martini left, which meant that the trail back was still considerd safe.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2021 15:34:01 GMT
Custer is obligated to respond to the message. He is obligated to respond to messages from his subordinate commanders. He quit commanding his regiment at that point.
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Post by quincannon on May 14, 2021 16:30:06 GMT
Communications is a two way street. A message sent, and unanswered, by acknowledgement, is in fact worse than no message being sent at all. No excuse,it is an abrogation of responsibility on Custer's part.
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Post by yanmacca on May 14, 2021 19:41:38 GMT
So we can list it as another one of Custer's many mistakes that day.
I suppose if there was enemy elements cutting off the route back, the commander would order the messenger to stay, but as I said ealier, he must have sent Martini back after McLlhargey and Mitchell both arrived, so the route was still deemed clear.
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Post by yanmacca on May 14, 2021 19:48:24 GMT
Remember earlier when I mentioned how Kanipe said the regiment was devided and Custer too four companies, well here is the segment from the actual account;
General Custer took the chief trumpeter and two scouts and was gone two hours. When he came back, he divided the regiment into three detachments. He gave Major Reno three troops, "A," "M," and "G;" Captain Benteen, three troops, "H," "K" and "D," and gave Captain McDougall charge of the pack train with Troop "B." He then took for himself Troops "C," "E," "I," and "F."
So how come a Sgt could miss out the largest company in the Custer battalion, it certainly shows how battle stress can impact on your thinking.
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