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Post by quincannon on Nov 5, 2015 0:52:54 GMT
Dave: I did not have my references at hand when we discussed this a few days ago so I was not sure I could give you details until I refreshed myself.
The Mahan decisive sea battle was at the root of everyone's thinking from his time until at least the close of WWII. We embraced it just as much as the IJN. Up until 39-40 that thinking was based upon a battleship slugfest. It started to change with Lepanto, PH and the Malayan fiasco.
Kido Butai the IJN strike force always included two BB's to operate with the six carriers, along with other screening vessels. After Santa Cruz, Kido Butai was extinct, and what was left of it holed up for over a year. At the end of 43 and into 44 the Combined Fleet now under Ozawa, reorganized pretty much along the same lines that we did in 43. They became a fully integrated force and their task groups pretty much mirrored our own.
They were still seeking that decisive battle, and they came out twice under that configuration and were soundly beaten both times.
I think in their hearts the IJN Gun Club wanted a Jutland style slugfest, but so did ours. Lee our BB guy would have loved nothing better than to mix it up with his IJN counterparts, but they all also knew that was not going to happen on a large scale without control of the air
Did you get into Toll and Hornfischer yet? |
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dave
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Post by dave on Nov 5, 2015 3:39:29 GMT
QC
I had Hornfischer's Ship of Ghosts, The Last Tin Can Sailors and Neptune's Inferno. All of which I really enjoyed. Toll's Six Frigates was the only book of his I had till you suggested his new books. I got Pacific Crucible and The Conquering Tide. I must say he is an excellent writer and very easy reading for any one no matter what there prior knowledge. I really appreciate the heads up on Toll.
As to the conflict between the "Black Shoes" and "Brown Shoes" for control of the navy, I must admit it would have been really exciting to have been around then. "Ching" Lee was a true battleship man to the bone and famous for his “Stand aside, this is Ching Lee, I’m coming through” off Guadalcanal in November 1942. His force sank the IJN Kirishima
The irony of this battleship vs battleship conflict was that a carrier admiral, William Halsey, was the man who sent Lee and his battlewagons to whip the Japanese. I am not sure if Halsey wore brown shoes but would bet he did.
Regards
Dave
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Post by quincannon on Nov 5, 2015 4:24:07 GMT
Halsey did not have much choice. Washington and South Dakota were pretty much all he had left.
What would have really been interesting is if the WA & SD could have made it for the night before. Pretty sure Lee was senior to both Callahan and Scott, and would have assumed tactical command.
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dave
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Post by dave on Nov 5, 2015 17:46:31 GMT
QC
I find it fascinating how history could have been impacted by just one little change. The many "what ifs" are always so intriguing and prompts one to imagine. Such as if the officer on the South Dakota had not made a switching error and she had not lost all power could she have accomplished more?
Regards
Dave
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Post by quincannon on Nov 5, 2015 18:01:33 GMT
I think that is what keeps us all interested Dave.
South Dakota was pretty beat up on 14 November, requiring her to be sent back Stateside for repairs. There she became legendary as Battleship X, much like the earlier Boise (the one ship task force)after Cape Esperance. None of it was true of course.
Many years ago as a teenager I walked SD decks, and you could still see some of the dents in the armor from that night, places where shells had hit but did not penetrate.
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dave
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Post by dave on Nov 5, 2015 18:13:20 GMT
How is your sub navy coming along? Did I tell you I had a copy of Theodore Roscoe's United States Submarine Operations in World War II and United States Destroyer Operations in World War II? The Destroyer book provides a lot of good info regarding the naval operations of all the vessels that participated in the South Pacific.
Both books are really fascinating and well written considering they were both published within 8 years of the end of WW II. Censorship and secrecy and all.
Having been to the SD's sister ship Alabama many times has been very helpful in seeing and visualizing how these battlewagons were designed and engineered with
late 1930's and 1940's technology just like the Drum and her sisters. it helps me to see things better when I can visit. Just like I want to visit LBH in June and see the field again with the others and learn from their insights as well.
Regards
Dave
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Post by quincannon on Nov 5, 2015 19:34:39 GMT
Both books are very valuable. I often refer to them.
Another of SD's sisters is in Fall River, Mass.
My sub navy is about as before. Might do a couple more before the March show. Been doing a few carriers lately, and just acquired two already built German shipsin 1/1250 scale Scharnhorst and Admiral Graf Spee
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Mar 1, 2016 19:48:43 GMT
How is your sub navy coming along? Did I tell you I had a copy of Theodore Roscoe's United States Submarine Operations in World War II and United States Destroyer Operations in World War II? The Destroyer book provides a lot of good info regarding the naval operations of all the vessels that participated in the South Pacific. Both books are really fascinating and well written considering they were both published within 8 years of the end of WW II. Censorship and secrecy and all. Having been to the SD's sister ship Alabama many times has been very helpful in seeing and visualizing how these battlewagons were designed and engineered with late 1930's and 1940's technology just like the Drum and her sisters. it helps me to see things better when I can visit. Just like I want to visit LBH in June and see the field again with the others and learn from their insights as well. Regards Dave Both books were required reading in my household (just kidding but Pop had hardcover versions of both). Amazing stuff. |
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dave
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Post by dave on Mar 1, 2016 22:02:33 GMT
Brother Dave I hope you got both of those tomes! Since we started discussing the fiasco of Typhoon Cobra I have referred to Roscoe's Destroyer Operations often and used it to get a bigger view of the other ships involved. I recently began reading Bruce Henerson's Down to the Sea for a different perspective of the Typhoon Cobra and the DDs that were lost. I have listed a good site for information below. The more I read the more respect I have for those men who went to sea on these thin clad ships with steel plates of less than 1" thick hulls. The price they payed for speed is eerily similar to the price the Japanese paid for the incredible performance of the A6M Zero. The Tin Cans were the workhorses of the fleet and always in short supply. Funny how someone like me is so easily distracted and starts studying another battle far from Montana and horses. Senility has arrived but I am happy. I think? Regards Dave pwencycl.kgbudge.com/D/e/Destroyers.htm |
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Mar 1, 2016 22:17:24 GMT
Brother Dave I hope you got both of those tomes! Since we started discussing the fiasco of Typhoon Cobra I have referred to Roscoe's Destroyer Operations often and used it to get a bigger view of the other ships involved. I recently began reading Bruce Henerson's Down to the Sea for a different perspective of the Typhoon Cobra and the DDs that were lost. I have listed a good site for information below. The more I read the more respect I have for those men who went to sea on these thin clad ships with steel plates of less than 1" thick hulls. The price they payed for speed is eerily similar to the price the Japanese paid for the incredible performance of the A6M Zero. The Tin Cans were the workhorses of the fleet and always in short supply. Funny how someone like me is so easily distracted and starts studying another battle far from Montana and horses. Senility has arrived but I am happy. I think? Regards Dave pwencycl.kgbudge.com/D/e/Destroyers.htmSice Pop passed away in 2009 I have no idea what happened to those 2 books. Google The destroyer Ernest G Small. Dad was the gunnery officer during a ship-to-shore bombardment in the Korean War where she struck a mine and got her bow blown off yet her crew kept her afloat and literally steamed back to Japan backwards. Pop was offered the Purple Heart but turned it down because he was injured, not technically wounded, during the battle. I do not quite have details but he was blown through an open hatch and injured his knee. Had that hatch been shut, yours truly and 3 more sisters would not be here. Best, David |
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dave
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Post by dave on Mar 1, 2016 22:29:12 GMT
Brother Dave How remarkable that my father served on the USS Stickell (DD-888) off Korea as the same time her sister ship, USS Ernest G. Small (DD-838), was there. How about that for an outlandish coincidence. I found a really funny shot of your dad's can at the NavSource web site below. Regards Dave www.navsource.org/archives/05/0583808.jpg |
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Post by quincannon on Mar 1, 2016 23:12:49 GMT
They grafted a new bow onto the Small from one of the Gearings that were left incomplete at the end of the war. I think it was the Owens but I am not sure.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 1, 2016 23:25:43 GMT
Speaking of rebuilds, does anyone have an idea why the Navy went to the time, trouble, expense, and most importantly tying up valuable yard capacity to rebuild Cassin, Downes and Shaw, all three constructive total losses from damage sustained at Pearl Harbor? One would think it a complete waste to rebuild these ships to a then obsolescent design, when with the same effort you could build three more Fletchers.
I have asked this question many times before, to some very smart people, and never got an answer that made sense to me. It may have been the right answer, but it still did not make sense.
Battleships I can understand, but then again I would have only put effort into the Big Five (California, Tennessee, Maryland, Colorado, and West Virginia) and left old near useless tubs, like Pennsylvania and Nevada ply away their elder years on training duties. Destroyers, as you both have eluded to are built to be expended. |
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dave
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Post by dave on Mar 2, 2016 3:22:22 GMT
QC
After looking at the NavSource photos of the 3 tin cans I too am at a loss as to why the Navy repaired them. It took over 2 years to rebuild the Cassin and Downes and they were new hulls and old innards. Doesn't make much sense like you stated. As to the Shaw I see more logic in replacing her bow and having her ready for sea in late 1942.
I am somewhat surprised that a man who had made a career in the US Army rising from the ranks would expect some type of logic or sense out of any decisions made by a branch of the US military. Drop and give me 30!
Regards
Dave
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Mar 2, 2016 3:24:10 GMT
Brother Dave How remarkable that my father served on the USS Stickell (DD-888) off Korea as the same time her sister ship, USS Ernest G. Small (DD-838), was there. How about that for an outlandish coincidence. I found a really funny shot of your dad's can at the NavSource web site below. Regards Dave www.navsource.org/archives/05/0583808.jpgIt does look odd. I believe 9 sailors perished. From what my mother told me many years later, general quarters was sounded shortly before The Small struck the mine. The enlisted men's mess was in the bow. Had the alarm mot been sounded the mess hall in the bow would have been a massive tomb. Of course I have not looked at the ship's plans to verify the mess hall's location. |
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