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Post by yanmacca on Oct 15, 2015 12:13:14 GMT
Chuck I have read that in 1916 the US army had 15 regiments of cavalry containing over 15.000 men, is it true that this figure rose considerably during WW1 and some were turned into horse artillery battalions? Here is some coat of arms of the various US cavalry regiments; linkYan.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 19, 2015 18:22:56 GMT
Ian: Sorry for the delay in answering this. I just saw it this morning
In 1900 there were ten regiments of regular cavalry 1-10.
In February 1901 five more 11-15 were authorized and organized mainly as our response to the outcomes of the Spanish American War and the fact that we had acquired several overseas territories. Cavalry regiments would routinely rotate to the Philippines and to Cuba
Ten more regiments 16-25 were authorized in 1916 and were activated over a period of the next year (most of them in 1917) Of those 16 and 17 remained cavalry, and the rest converted to field artillery as follows
18th Cavalry became the 76th Field Artillery 19th Cavalry became the 77th Field Artillery 20th Cavalry became the 78th Field Artillery 21st Cavalry became the 79th Field Artillery 22nd Cavalry became the 80th Field Artillery 23rd Cavalry became the 81st Field Artillery 24th Cavalry became the 82nd Field Artillery 25th Cavalry became the 83rd Field Artillery
All of these were regiments in WWI, and most were inactivated following the war (most not all) In preparation for WWII all of these regiments were broken up the fist battalion of the regiment usually retaining the regimental number, for instance the first battalion of the 82nd Regiment became the 82nd Field Artillery Battalion. The second battalion usually received a number in the five hundred series. When they were reactivated for WWII most of these units found themselves as part of U S Armored Division, and in the case of the 82, it was an FA battalion in the 1st CD.
The 26th Cavalry was not authorized and organized until 1922 and was always a Philippine Schout regiment.
All of those converted to FA cavalry regiments are still on the books, although not many have any elements presently active.
The 26th Cavalry was disbanded in 1947.
Keep in mind that the National Guard also had several cavalry organizations active before WWI and all of them were converted to other purposes for that war.
In addition 15 regiments of cavalry were authorized to be activated in the National Army (draftees) in 1917 These were the 301st through 315th. They were all converted to FA within a month or so of their organization. Most have no historical descendants in today's army.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 19, 2015 18:35:55 GMT
Thanks Chuck, yes that makes a lot of sense to me, horse mounted cavalry was being phased out between the wars but I guess that many field artillery battalions were still horse drawn, especially in infantry divisions, so these cavalry regiments already had the horses so just add the field pieces, my money was on 75mm M1897 as the weapon of choice.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 19, 2015 19:03:53 GMT
Ian I highly doubt if any of those cavalry regiments that were converted to FA ever saw a horse before they were converted. They were all in the process of being filled and starting basic training when they were converted.
The only thing horse cavalry was useful for during that period was constabulary and border patrol duties. Their combat capability was NADA. Those that insisted on the retention of the horse after 1918 and especially after 1939 were only fooling themselves.
Guys like Patton, Chafee, Brett, and others all knew this and their early writings and experimentation show it.
If you really want to be entertained sometime read Patton's article that appeared in the Cavalry Journal under a pen name where you follow the adventures of the 2nd Deathbolts in their gas proof armored cars, performing the cavalry function. It nearly gave the horsey boys apoplexy, and he was told in no uncertain terms by the then Chief of Cavalry to cut it out -- OR ELSE.
The US Army had retired the horse in the field artillery by 1935. The only animal transport for artillery during WWII and thereafter were the mule pack battalions, the last of which phased out in 1955. There were very few of them, and they all carried the pack 75, which did not have much range and was for the most art useless in a fast moving situation.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 19, 2015 19:24:06 GMT
Yes both the US and the British saw the need to mechanise, but everyone else still used them in vast numbers. Some mounted units were also converted to trench mortar batteries too, here is a diagram of a US cavalry division circa 1916;
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Post by quincannon on Oct 19, 2015 20:10:06 GMT
Keep in mind Ian that there was no organized and active U S cavalry division in 1916 and that wiring diagram you posted was a theoretical organization.
We did activate a cavalry division that was similarly constructed in 1917 and it lasted until early 1918. It was designated the 15th Cavalry Division, being the 15th regular division organized under the mobilization construct of the spring of 1917. As said it was disbanded as a division in early 1918. There was another 15th Division that was authorized and organized later that same year, but those two have no historical connection. This later 15th Division was demobilized late in 1918 or early 1919 I forget which, and neither of them ever appeared in the force structure again.
It is interesting to note though that two of the brigade headquarters companies in the current 1st Cavalry Division have lineages that go back to the 1st and 2nd Brigades of the 15th Cavalry Division of 1917.
Also keep in mind that the lineage of a division in the U S Army follows the headquarters company,or troop and now the headquarters and headquarters battalion.
We have had on occasion a division headquarters company active, when the rest of the division units are inactive. We have one such today the 7th Infantry Division which only has the headquarters company active.
We have also had divisional units active and assigned to a division, where the division headquarters itself is inactive.
To understand the U S Army it is only necessary to understand that the "first" infantry is really the 3rd Infantry. If you understand that then everything else makes sense.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 20, 2015 11:03:51 GMT
Chuck, I remain confused, not unusual. How existent, today, is Air Cav. formed 16 June 1965? I think that designation has even changed. Supported some of those guys, way back.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 20, 2015 12:50:39 GMT
Tom; now you know why I keep colonel QC close on hand when I am dealing with the US army, and the US section on the web site with reap the bounty of his experience.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 20, 2015 15:35:27 GMT
Actually Tom the concept of using rotary winged aircraft in the cavalry role goes back to 1957 with Troop A, 17th Cavalry (82ndABD) and Troop B, 17th Cavalry (101st ABD).
The 1st Cavalry Division was an outgrowth of the Howtz Board (1962) and the concepts developed by that board were tested by the 11th Air Assault Division (not really a whole division activated to do the experimentation) and the 2nd Infantry Division, both at Fort Benning. Following the completion of the experiments the decision was made to include an airmobile division, in the structure. The Chief of Staff a the time was an old 1st Cav guy, and brought the colors of the 1st CD back from Korea, and used the assets of the 11th AA and the 2nd ID to resource the 1st CD as an airmobile division. Meanwhile the colors of the 2nd ID was transferred to Korea where the division is today. The 11th AA was inactivated.
The 1st CD remained airmobile until 1973 when it returned from Vietnam. It is now structured as a heavy division having three heavy brigades (two at Hood, and one recently deployed to Korea, and an aviation brigade.
Air Cavalry is alive though. Once this round of reorganizations is complete every division will have a squadron in the aviation brigade, that is designed to be the eyes of the division commander, while the ground squadron in each maneuver brigade serve as the eyes of the brigade commander. There will also be an air cavalry squadron in each battlefield surveillance brigade which are corps level units. The old 58th Brigade from MD is now the 58th Battlefield Surveillance Brigade with the 1-158 Cav as the air Cav squadron.
The initial organization of the air cav squadron was to be three troops of AH64 Apaches and one troop of RQ7 drones. The ultimate organization with be three troops of Apaches each troop also having an RQ7 platoons.
There is a bright future for air cav in the U S Army. Cavalry cannot reconnoiter for the division commander without being in the air
Boot is to track as track is to rotor. For cavalry at division level to do its job it must have a mobility differential of at least twice what the division has on the ground.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 20, 2015 21:24:07 GMT
Chuck,
The 7th Cav. actually had this designation, and deployed as such in several major actions I Vietnam. My how the "Cavalry Mindset" has changed!
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Oct 20, 2015 23:50:51 GMT
Tom: All of the maneuver battalions of the 1st Cavalry Division carry cavalry designations for historical purposes, In reality during Vietnam these maneuver battalions were organized as airmobile light Infantry. Today they are organized as combined arms maneuver battalion (two tank companies-two Infantry companies).
Regardless of how they were/are organized though they carry on the dragoon tradition - Either light Infantry as the dismount and attack helicopters providing the mounted cover or mech Infantry providing the dismounts with tanks as mounted cover. They both as either airmobile or heavy found a substitute for the horse.
The true air cavalry is what I described in my first post on this. I do wish they had a Troop D of airmobile Infantry in those squadrons though. That would make the recon package complete.
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