If Custer had survived the day...

[Beth]

If Custer had survived his wounds but nothing else material was changed about that day would any of his subordinates have been held accountable for the actions they took?  We often say that Reno and Benteen made the right calls but would our view of those calls still be the same?  

[quincannon]

Don't see how that could happen, and by that I mean Custer surviving under otherwise the very same circumstances. But let's say it did. Custer sends Reno in unsupported. Custer looses his immediate command.

He would undoubtedly faced courts martial for dereliction of duty and gross incompetence. He would have made no friends among the survivors. He would have hired a cracker jack defense council who would have attempted to deflect blame and responsibility. He would have been found guilty on all charges, but some of the other players would have been badly hurt in the process.

The difference is though, that by dying Custer becomes the honored dead, and generally people refrain from heaping scorn on a moronic baboon, if that moronic baboon happens to die in the process of his moronic undertaking. But people, people like us, always need someone living to blame.

[Beth]

We do as a society like to have a scapegoat even when one isn't necessary. Just like we add conspiracies when we don't like the results or a divine hand when the results are unexpected or unexplainable.

Personally I think Custer became a 'hero' because he was the image the public needed at that time. I can't speak for the rest of the universe but in the US we have a way of having a 'flavor of the month' hero that public falls in love with. It's the image of the lone fighter on the top of the hill fighting to the the end that grabs attention and is so "American psyche" and has nothing to do with reality.

[quincannon]

Beth: I can't think of another in our history quite like him.

Only MacArthur comes close. People forget his blunders and incompetence in the Philippines and Korea, and remember only the MacArthur of legend, which like Custer's was manufactured.

[Beth]

Sept 26, 2015 17:13:05 GMT quincannon said:

Beth: I can't think of another in our history quite like him.

Only MacArthur comes close. People forget his blunders and incompetence in the Philippines and Korea, and remember only the MacArthur of legend, which like Custer's was manufactured.

Perhaps because you are only thinking in the military.  Custer the legend (not Custer the person) belongs more with Parson's Weem's version of George Washington.  

[yanmacca]

I wonder if the enlisted men felt safe under his command, we speak of how certain officers either loved him or hated him, but the majority of soldiers under him were NCOs and privates and I wonder if they would feel more at ease having Custer leading them in the field then Reno.

What I would like to know was if the 190 NCOs and Privates that made the trek over to Calhoun still held faith in GAC to carry the day, as these men would be the first to see just how big this village was and I wonder if this effected their moral, and would they still feel in safe hands with GAC at the helm.

Yan.

[Beth]

Good question.

I don't think Custer was well liked in the early years of his time with the 7th but I don't know if he 'improved with age' among the enlisted men. I think that quite of few of them really had no exposure to Custer because the way the 7th was fragmented before the campaign on assignments around the country. However Custer was a public figure and a famous in his time as an Indian fighter so I am sure that held some sway.

I am willing to bet that after LBH if they didn't like Custer they kept that opinion to themselves.

[dave]

Beth
I thin you are right about the new guys no knowing Custer the man but rather his public image. I suspect the troops knew Custer was about Custer and they were there to serve him and his image.
Custer had burned so many bridges that I wonder if Grant would not only taken a personal interest in the case but would squeeze Sherman, Sheridan and others to see that he was properly punished. There were many other Heroes from the War that Custer would soon be forgotten. It was only with his death that he gained the fame he so badly wanted. Would Custer rather die and be famous or survive and be forgotten except as a loser? I betcha he would taken death.
Regards
Dave

[Beth]

I agree that if it weren't for BLH Custer would be a footnote in history known only to true Civil War buffs. Does anyone even know how many Civil War generals there were when you count both sides, Army and volunteers?

[carl]

US Only,

Statistical Record.., Frederick Phisterer

Major Generals, Regular Army - 11

Major Generals, Volunteers - 280 (includes 6 of the Regulars)

Brigadier Generals, Regular army - 33 (includes 5 who became Major Generals)

Brigadier Generals, Volunteers -552 (includes some of the above)

In addition over 1000 were Breveted Brig Gen or Maj Gen.

[dave]

Beth
Quick answer using Wikipedia

Brigadier Generals 383 

Major Generals 88 different men who had held this rank of Major general

Lieutenant Generals 18 

Full Generals 7
Regards
Dave
Unlike Carl I only knew 2 of the before they past, he and QC knew several more of the old soldiers. They being much older than me.

[Beth]

Thanks guys.

one of the things that sort of annoys me about LBH is when 'some' people refer to Custer as "General" because it was I guess a courtesy done at that time, but only call Reno Major. Reno was a Brevet Brigadier General as well. It seems to me you can't have it both ways.

[deadwoodgultch]

Sept 26, 2015 16:44:20 GMT Beth said:

We do as a society like to have a scapegoat even when one isn't necessary. Just like we add conspiracies when we don't like the results or a divine hand when the results are unexpected or unexplainable.

Personally I think Custer became a 'hero' because he was the image the public needed at that time. I can't speak for the rest of the universe but in the US we have a way of having a 'flavor of the month' hero that public falls in love with. It's the image of the lone fighter on the top of the hill fighting to the the end that grabs attention and is so "American psyche" and has nothing to do with reality.

Beth,

Dime novel blather. Kinda like Romance novels. If you need the escape get off the couch and go out and live your own life. Whitaker buttressed that image. If I want to escape, I go all the way to Stephen King's "Gunslinger" series. We all have hero's in our lives, my dad comes to mind or the young fellow who took seven bullets last week in Oregon, or the young fellows on the train in Europe, or the young girl who won the Nobel! These too may be flavors of the week, but they have not had 140 years to build up lovers and haters on either side, they did not need it. Custer needed propping up and obviously still does.

Regards,

Tom 

[Beth]

I totally agree. But remember that Custer had a great PR agent for the first 50+ years after he met his Waterloo. Libbie Custer protected his reputation like it was a deposit in Fort Knox. I can only give the the aggrieved, grieving widow part of her story only so much credit after that you have to realize that Custer's image and reputation was Libbie's only source of support from June 1876 to her death in April 1933. She made George her cottage industry and help his golden image current in people's minds.

[rebcav]

Years ago there was a pretty cool show on the A&E Channel called "The Court Martial of General George Armstrong Custer".... I think it can still be found on like amazon.com or some such, maybe on A&E's website...Entertaining to say the least...

Respectfully,
Duane