Never Got to Ford D

[herosrest]

I'm throwing up some info in scratchpad fashion which isn't really the precision work most here appreciate but with this battle, I have found that nailing jelly to walls seems to be popular. Don't take offence please. 

First. Tall Bull lived and died at Lame Deer, a li'lmore than a stone's throw from Colstrip which popped up in other discussion today. Tall Bull (who was at LBH) was good friends with Richard Woodenleg who was one of seventeen (I believe) Cheyenne informants who told Marquis all about the battle and he (Marquis and Woodenleg) knew zilch about Ford D.

Ian - the building in the green circle (JSiT map) link - there's a bunch of 1930's and 1940's battlefield terrain images with NPS Yellowstone's online library. 

Example - link 
When Luce started work at LBH, various construction was undertaken throughout his tenure and no-one seems to have any kind of overview but there were structures placed on the terrain of the green circle area. link Pump houses, electrical installations, phone, a sump and pipework up to the Superintendent's house and monumnet and all sorts of roadworks which continue today. Therein lays your answer.

The Willy Bend's site is the location where 7th Cavalry and Montana Column with supply train and artillery (Gatling guns) camped on the night of 28/29th June 1876; and where P.H. Sheridan and his cavalry escort camped in July 1877, during his march overland to Ft. Custer as Post No. 2 at the time. Sherman was at Ft. Custer and pretty much all the brass involved with the campaign of 1877. There is a map of Sheridan's march showing the camping spot. When I can i'll dig it up. 

In amongst the images at Yellowstone are a collection from Luce and a guy called Condon, of the terrain where they were finding evidence of gunfire anlong the Luce and NC ridges. 

Another image set link 

There was an account of the battle by Tall Bull www.astonisher.com/archives/100voices/tall_bull_little_big_horn.html#note and in the Woodenleg battle story HERE they describe precisely where the stream running in from the east was. It does not exist today. It was where the Cheyenne camp stood and that was opposite the divide of North Medicine Tail (Deep Coulee) and Medicine Tail Ck.

[mac]

Jun 30, 2023 0:29:13 GMT herosrest said:

First. Tall Bull lived and died at Lame Deer, a li'lmore than a stone's throw from Colstrip which popped up in other discussion today. Tall Bull (who was at LBH) was good friends with Richard Woodenleg who was one of seventeen (I believe) Cheyenne informants who told Marquis all about the battle and he (Marquis and Woodenleg) knew zilch about Ford D.

Here is a quote from the astonisher text of Tall Bull's account.

All the lower village people heard this and rushed up to where the soldiers were. Back of the village that was fired, was a high hill, and the Indians all ran up on it and then charged down on the soldiers, who retreated into the timber. They did not stop there, but ran right through it and out on the other side. I was present there and tried to cross the river. As the troops were crossing the river, the Indians kept killing them right along. When the soldiers had all crossed the stream, news came to the Indians from down the creek, that more soldiers were coming, and all turned back. They did not persue [sic] the soldiers after they had crossed. All rushed back on the west side of the camp, down to a small dry run that comes in from the east, and there, down close to the river, were the soldiers. The Indians all crossed and they fought there. For quite a long time the troops stood their ground right there; then they began to back off, fighting all the time, for quite a distance, working up the hill, until they got pretty close to where the monument now is, and then the soldiers turned and rushed to the top of the hill. There they killed them all.

The parts in green show why Tall Bull does not know much about Ford D. He was fighting Reno in the valley. Anyone fighting Reno could not also be at Ford D when Custer arrived.

This is the whole Ford B problem; using hearsay accounts from people who were not there to show Custer went to Ford B.

Cheers

[quincannon]

Two factors relate to the problem as I see it:

1) In concert with what Mac said above one must know where the observer who relates the story, was, and being there, was he/she in a position to actually observe the portion of the story they are relating. Absent being in the critical location one must assume that the person relating the story is repeating what is nothing more than here say evidence which under most instances is not allowed in a court of law, nor should it be taken as the complete truth here.

2) There is such a thing as a fixed idea. That fixed idea was planted in the minds of white persons as early as 27 June 1876, and it remains today. The fixed idea was that Custer approached Ford B and was repulsed. There is no remaining physical evidence that this happened. If any ever existed it was not documented, except for the observation of shod horses crossing Ford B. That could have happened in several ways including captured horses being driven across Ford B. Nothing was ever said about "reading the sign" indicating the manner in which these horses crossed. Had an observer stated that these shod horses seemed to be in some sort of line formation as they approached the ford, that could make all the difference in the world, being a clear indicator of some or all of Custer approaching that ford. There are no such statements in evidence. Couple this absence with what your common sense will tell you. That ford was used as a crossing place for a bazillion and a half number of Indians going toward battle. Those Indians were at least partially mounted. Had there been an approach to the ford by Custer, those Indian crossings would have all but obliterated those shod tracks. The fact that the shod tracks were discovered after the battle, given that B is a known Indian crossing point during the battle, is an indicator that those shod tracks were made post battle. I am no scout. I cannot read sign. What I can do though is use common sense in evaluating what is laid before me.

The second portion of Tall Bull's account should leave no doubt in anyone's mind that he is referencing Ford D, as his narrative fits the description of no other place on the battlefield. It is very consistent with the artifact field located in the north on Cemetery Ridge, Battle Ridge Extension and Battle Ridge itself.

Where Mac and I differ is how far off of BRE and CR the soldiers were able to penetrate. Mac thinks they got into the valley. I do not. My basis is some Indians say soldiers got to the river, and some say no. It is possible to get to the river without getting into the valley. It is not possible for some to say yes and some to say no, without getting into the valley. I postulate that most likely Company E got to the river near where the park housing is today. The rest did not. In the end it makes no difference to the course of the battle if either Mac or I am correct. To the river or not, Custer was quickly driven back.

[quincannon]

Keep in mind here that I tend to look at things/events from a tactical perspective, and I despise Victorian era romance, unless John Ford directs it.

It is apparent to me that Custer was attempting to withdraw from the northern sector, with an eye toward probably consolidating the regiment in the south, and then doing something else. The normal way to do this is a process called thinning the lines. There are several methods of doing that, all of which require some manner of forward presence, until (if you are successful) that forward presence disappears. In doing this, time is not your friend, as those that oppose you are maneuvering against you. If the enemy is lazy, you can pull such a move off without much trouble (which is a relative term). If they are aggressive most times you have had the snitzel. The enemy was aggressive, which is pretty much the end of the story. How it ended then is not relative. The results are relative.

[Elwood]

Jun 30, 2023 16:57:34 GMT quincannon said:

Keep in mind here that I tend to look at things/events from a tactical perspective, and I despise Victorian era romance, unless John Ford directs it.

How about Howard Hawks?

[yanmacca]

You're right Elwood, the thing from outer space was a great movie.

I wonder why folks from outside the UK refer to their own historical periods as "victorian", Queen Victoria was a British Queen, but it seems the whole world use her as a term when addressing the period she was our monarch.

[Elwood]

Hawks did some really good westerns.

[yanmacca]

Yeah, I must have half a dozen of them on dvd.

Ian

[quincannon]

You answered your own question Ian. Victoria had a world wide influence.

Howard Hawks was someone I could do without, and not miss at all. Ford was mentioned because he is pure smaltz, and I like smaltz. Why do you think I use Quincannon?

[herosrest]

Just passing through, with the Sheridan related 1877 map link from MTM. There is a higher resolution copy online somewhere but I've only hit the Memory project link. Anyone know what weapon Sheridan carried? Terry as well for that matter. It's interesting to see the Ford D issues framed as certainty and Ford B events as speculation by participants. My own view of this battle is that Custer repeated his Washita tactics and ordered such an attack, however that cannot be shown with the after action accounts. A cavalry presence at Ford D during the opening attack cannot be shown either and therefore it didn't happen. No Cheyenne, Sioux, or Arapaho accounts by participants indicate, or should be read to indicate an organised cavalry presence west of the later monument and ravine which was deep. The horses down by the river which initially confounded Reno and Benteen were escapes from the fighting on the ridge. As I pointed out recently, Boston Custer did not die on Battle Ridge and was marked on the ground below Custer's Hill, by the party visiting the field in July 1877, with P.H. Sheridan. This was noted by J.G. Bourke in his notes on stuff. Custer was not buried where he fell. 

I had found a picture of the Server Hotel on Crow Agency but it then promptly vanished... which was odd and has begun an investigation of some proportion. Any way, no first hand Cheyenne, Sioux, or Arapaho account of the battle places soldiers down the valley where ford D theorists love to play. It is interesting to see this twistof the strands persued so ardently but as I said earlier, there is no proof Custer repeated his Washita attack tactics. By the time Reno's attack had recoiled onto the bluffs where a hill was sadly named for him, the five companies were in North Medicine Tail, on Blummer's Ridges and forced to react to large numbers of hostiles who rode down to them from the Weir Peak terrain. They were cut off from the back trail which was the inherent risk of this form of attack. When the opening strike can be quickly crushed, the attack can be dealt with in detail which is precisely what happened. The Ford D D theory is broadly lacking any evidence and certainly any substantial evidence. As I asked, do we know what personal weapons Sheridan, Terry, and others present in 1877 and ever since - used?

Here is Brave Wolf discussing the battle. Some say that he killed Custer. 

Added - possibly the Server Hotel of course he passed in 1911. 

Tour de France cycling is underway today and just passed through a sprint stage on the road in Guernica, fantastic views of the Basque countryside.


www.astonisher.com/archives/100voices/brave_wolf_little_big_horn.html Brave Wolf's account - he was at the Cheyenne camp. The Cheyenne camp was on the B fords.

[herosrest]

Jun 30, 2023 7:28:55 GMT mac said:

Jun 30, 2023 0:29:13 GMT herosrest said:

First. Tall Bull lived and died at Lame Deer, a li'lmore than a stone's throw from Colstrip which popped up in other discussion today. Tall Bull (who was at LBH) was good friends with Richard Woodenleg who was one of seventeen (I believe) Cheyenne informants who told Marquis all about the battle and he (Marquis and Woodenleg) knew zilch about Ford D.

Here is a quote from the astonisher text of Tall Bull's account.

All the lower village people heard this and rushed up to where the soldiers were. Back of the village that was fired, was a high hill, and the Indians all ran up on it and then charged down on the soldiers, who retreated into the timber. They did not stop there, but ran right through it and out on the other side. I was present there and tried to cross the river. As the troops were crossing the river, the Indians kept killing them right along. When the soldiers had all crossed the stream, news came to the Indians from down the creek, that more soldiers were coming, and all turned back. They did not persue [sic] the soldiers after they had crossed. All rushed back on the west side of the camp, down to a small dry run that comes in from the east, and there, down close to the river, were the soldiers. The Indians all crossed and they fought there. For quite a long time the troops stood their ground right there; then they began to back off, fighting all the time, for quite a distance, working up the hill, until they got pretty close to where the monument now is, and then the soldiers turned and rushed to the top of the hill. There they killed them all.

The parts in green show why Tall Bull does not know much about Ford D. He was fighting Reno in the valley. Anyone fighting Reno could not also be at Ford D when Custer arrived.

This is the whole Ford B problem; using hearsay accounts from people who were not there to show Custer went to Ford B.

Cheers

Try working with accounts of Cheyenne and Sioux who were in the village and saw the saw the soldiers.

I have never located a battle account from military or hostiles who were present, which places the cavalry advance into the Ford D areas where you feel they went. There is no artifact evidence. There is no observation by of it by military after the battle.

What evidence have you beyond your logic, for it happening. There is no evidence but I presume you know of some which I do not.

[johnson1941]

Sgt John Ryan...Ford B description, including finding bodies, re: the Weir advance...

Leaving two companies with the packs and wounded, Major Reno, with five companies, or what was left of them, proceeded in the direction we had supposed
General Custer took, and in the direction of the Indian camp. We went in that direction for probably half a mile until we gained a high point
and could overlook the Indian camp and the battlefield. We saw at a distance of from a mile and a half to two miles parties whom we supposed were Indians, riding back
and forth, firing scattering shots. We thought that they were disposing of Custer's wounded men, and this afterward proved to be true.
We halted for a few moments, and saw a large herd of ponies at the further end of the village, and could distinguish a large party of Indians coming towards the
Indian camp. The prairie around the village and the first battlefield was all afire, having been set by the Indians to hide their movements.


At the top of this bluff we halted, and at foot there was a ford, and this was where Custer had first encountered the Indians, as we found some of the dead bodies there
two days afterwards.

While we were on the bluffs the Indians again made their appearance, coming in large numbers from the direction in which we heard the firing.
We exchanged several shots with them, and we lost a few men, and then had orders to fall back to our packs and wounded.

[johnson1941]

Wooden Leg's description of the camp...

"The Cheyenne location was about two miles north from the present railroad station at Garryowen, Montana. We were near the mouth of a small creek flowing from the southwestward into the river. Across the river east of us and a little upstream from us was a broad coulee, or little valley, having now the name Medicine Tail coulee. The Uncpapas, at the southern end of the group and most distant from us, put their circle just northeast of the present Garryowen station. The other four circles were placed here and there between us and the Uncpapas."


And HIS & 2 others approach to do battle w/Custer, him after getting back to the Cheyenne camp - coming down the steep hills from Reno...

"We forded the river where all of the Indians were crossing it, at the broad shallows immediately in front of the little valley or wide coulee on the east side."


Leg, Wooden; thomas B. Marquis. Wooden Leg: A Warrior Who Fought Custer (p. 98). Arcadia Ebooks. Kindle Edition.

Attachments:

[johnson1941]

And Brave Wolf's...

"When I got to the Cheyenne camp, the fighting had been going on for some time. The soldiers (Custer's), were right down close to the stream, but none were on this side. Just as I got there, the soldiers began to retreat up the narrow gulch. They were all drawn up in line of battle, shooting well and fighting hard, but there were so many people around them, that they could not help being killed. They still held their line of battle and kept fighting and falling from their horses; fighting and falling all the way up, nearly to where the monument now stands."

Noted Brave Wolf says fighting was still taking place close to the stream, while Wooden Leg places the soldiers way east...

"The soldiers had come along a high ridge about two miles east from the Cheyenne camp. They had gone on past us and then swerved off the high ridge to the lower ridge where most of them afterward were killed. While they were yet on the far-out ridge a few Sioux and Cheyennes had exchanged shots with them at long distance..."



And, as noted Tall Bull...

"They did not persue [sic] the soldiers after they had crossed. All rushed back on the west side of the camp, down to a small dry run that comes in from the east, and there, down close to the river, were the soldiers. The Indians all crossed and they fought there."

[quincannon]

Either I am missing something here or you are trying to make a point I do not understand.

The north end of the Cheyenne camp and the unattached warriors were located a few hundred meters south of Ford(s) D. That is perfectly consistent with being two miles north of Garryowen. The mouth of Medicine Tail Coulee and the Ford was about a mile south of the south end of the Cheyenne Camp. The Cheyenne therefore were much closer to Ford D than Ford B.

With this in mind what are you saying that these people are trying to relate?