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Post by herosrest on Mar 26, 2023 14:06:34 GMT
As QC said we must think about them executing the tactics they knew. The archaeology actually shows that they maintained good order right up to the final collapses.
Point to ponder here.
Custer has already messaged Benteen. What does Custer expect Reno is doing?
Fred Wagner has done recent work on the Reno fight. He says in his opinion Reno made only one critical mistake and the was taking the horses of two companies into the timber. This effectively fixed Reno in the timber.
Fred's point was that, with mobility, Reno could have staged a controlled retrograde back down the valley.
My point has for a long time been that, almost certainly, that is what Custer thinks is happening. Now we can start to understand why Custer is trying to retrograde South. He thinks Reno is dragging the enemy force in the valley back towards Ford A.
Think on that geometry of the forces involved and I will try to create the map Mike requested. Stand by Ian....I may need your help mate   !
Cheers
fred's idea that two companies only sent horses into the valley timber is simply wrong. I watched discussions where he pushed his idea and was strongly and factually challenged to no end. His mind was made up and set in ink. I imagine the broad outline of the march from Ford A is bread and butter here, and what does it reallymatter? Battalion wenthere. Deployed there. Bugged out against unexpected enemy strength. That's what happened. It happened in the time Custer took to reach MTC send Martin to Benteen and Benteen reached Reno on the bluffs. The valley action was brief to the point of abrupt flight to avoid being pinned to the timber. Anyway. The companies advanced with a reserve which was placed online ( no easy feat, apparently. Reaching the timber the rightflank company dismounted skirmishers into the woods to check them clear of threat. That is the three companies milling about with M on the timber. Timber clear, Sir!. Left and centre companies dismount and led horses go into timber as skirmishers advance. Hostiles already respondingto the front and beginning to flank left (standard indian tactics). Company M dismount with led horses into timber - fred's difficulty. M company deployed across the rear of the two company dismounted line, to the left flank. Hostiles extend and flank M. A squad of scouts were then sent to the left of M's line. Some difficulties with jamming carbines put the wind up Reno. |
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Post by herosrest on Mar 26, 2023 14:09:33 GMT
Reno and Terry sat the small arms board, reviewing, trialing and adopting the Springfield system. Reno signed off for the Cavalry. Carried rounds coroded with verdigris. Boxed rounds were fine. This was why Reno vanished into the timber. The guns were jamming in rapid fire.
The Chicago Inquiry wondered why the good Major, threw his carbine away. Kinda guy he was. It explains very much and the shoot and scoot deployment.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824 
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Post by azranger on Mar 28, 2023 14:21:56 GMT
Reno and Terry sat the small arms board, reviewing, trialing and adopting the Springfield system. Reno signed off for the Cavalry. Carried rounds coroded with verdigris. Boxed rounds were fine. This was why Reno vanished into the timber. The guns were jamming in rapid fire. The Chicago Inquiry wondered why the good Major, threw his carbine away. Kinda guy he was. It explains very much and the shoot and scoot deployment. There were design faults. The extractor had to be doubled in length where it contacted the breech block. The breech block could override the extractor causing a failure to extract. This was more likely to occur under heaving fire do to the expansion of the case. I find it odd that some look at the number of cases with obvious tool marks to come up with failure rate. Since the condition most likely required rapid firing the cases representing other than the last one to get stuck would have no marking. Not a problem unless you're under fire and need the weapon to work. Often ignored is that those cases found only represent successful extraction and ejection. A carbine with a failure to extract became a Indian carbine. After they cooled and time to work on it the Indians could clear the malfunction much easier. 2-3 % of cases found indicated tool marks indicating failure to extract and the use of a tool to extract. That is huge. 1 in 50 rounds fired required manual extraction. We have no clue as to how many carbines were found that had a failure to extract. Regards AZ Ranger |
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azranger
Brigadier General
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Post by azranger on Mar 28, 2023 14:37:54 GMT
"The Sioux have drawings of chasing the grey horses across the western corridor" Another Keogh sock story I am afraid Steve. Drawing is one thing. Chasing is another. What Sioux, by specific name, group, warrior society, or tribe chased grey horses across the western corridor? Name them. If all the other accounts about Sioux activities are correct, there were no Sioux to do any chasing. Balderdash to the tenth power. Pigeon poop, that cannot be traced to any documented incident, and that can be factually defined and attributed to someone or some ones. No Steve, if you find yourself in a fair fight, the other guys tactics suck. That is of course if you believe as I do that the other guy is always smarter than you are. Believing that insures that you may some day play with your grandchildren. Humility is the greatest of all military virtues. Chuck You can't change the quote from John Steinbeck but you can disagree. So your no is not right but you can hold your own opinion. Situational awareness goes along way to avoid a fight or at least give you an advantage. Regards Steve |
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Post by quincannon on Mar 28, 2023 14:53:55 GMT
Did not change anyone's quote Steve, but I do disagree with it. It was my impression that the USMC insured that at the level of Lieutenant Colonel that their tactics never sucked. If that is so, I would presume they never would have reached that rank.
The other guy tries to insure that he never wants to enter a fair fight any more than we do. Therefore I conclude that if he is fighting in any manner that we would call fair, that it is his tactics that suck.
A better mantra I think is that if you anticipate a fair fight due to circumstance that may be beyond your control, don't fight, wait until another day, watch for the other guy's mistake, then pounce on him like a New Orleans whore when a rube comes to the French Quarter.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Mar 28, 2023 16:13:15 GMT
Steve, I think you both agree regarding fair fights, you simply are divergent on semantics. Obviously, however it is certain that Chuck has been a tourist in New Orleans. Confronting a woman who could throw him and blow him, before he could lick her or stick her. The fear of her is obvious from his last statement.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 30, 2023 9:17:51 GMT
£18 is enough for a couple of pints with change in the capital these days. Maybe enough left for a bag of crisps or two. £15 for a burger. I won £18 on the national 45 years ago you dip stick , you could spoil yourself rotten with £18 back then, a pint of beer was only 20p.
Ian
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Post by rollingthunder on Mar 30, 2023 13:28:23 GMT
£18 is enough for a couple of pints with change in the capital these days. Maybe enough left for a bag of crisps or two. £15 for a burger. I won £18 on the national 45 years ago you dip stick , you could spoil yourself rotten with £18 back then, a pint of beer was only 20p.
Ian
That was ninety beers, what a drunkenness we friends would have taken... hahahahahahahahaa |
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Post by herosrest on Mar 30, 2023 16:24:47 GMT
That's nine gallons, give or take. These days i'd end the session in a huge puddle after my gallon. Ah.......... the good old days.
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Post by dgfred on Mar 30, 2023 20:07:23 GMT
Very nice. Really enjoying your maps.
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Post by miker on May 7, 2023 1:21:33 GMT
Thanks dgfred!
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azranger
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Ranger
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Post by azranger on Jun 19, 2023 23:00:52 GMT
There was presentation at the LBHA meeting in Billings, MT. There is find near where Willy Bends’ house was location. Doug Scott can place 5 different carbines there. Looks like a detail to me. They also place a Remington Rolling Block there. There are 6 different Rolling Blocks identified in the studies of artifacts.
This information is published in the Research Review. Was at Tall Bull’s house today.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 20, 2023 2:57:16 GMT
Can Doug Scott identify the ownership of those carbines and the Remington? In other words, cartridges by themselves tell us diddly squat. Identification of those cartridges placed there that are also complimented by cartridges forensically matched to cartridges found at other locations significant to the battle are the only things that matter. It's like kissing your sister Steve, nice, but largely meaningless.
Additionally, has Scott ever considered celebratory firing after the battle with captured weapons. No, of course he has not, because that little gem would piss in his Ford D corn flakes.
Artifact finds can only tell so much of the story. Unless you know who had his grimy little hands on the weapon when it was fired at these outlying locations, they are only nice to know but completely inconclusive. When will the LBH community grow up and understand there is no Holy Grail to be found a hundred forty seven years after the event, no Keogh boot, no Cooke notebook, no Dandy poop. A complete waste of time and energy to think that the answer is right around the next corner. You all remind me of my X Wife. She always thought that big deal was right around the corner too. She found out differently.
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Post by miker on Jun 20, 2023 3:12:35 GMT
Where precisely is Willy Bends House?
Is there a link so the uninitiated can read the report?
Finding Carbine cartridges is nice but whst, if any other artifacts were found?
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Post by quincannon on Jun 20, 2023 4:15:35 GMT
At the I 90 Bridge Mike, actually a short distance from it. On your map coordinates 08354910.
Don't know, but if Steve knew of a link I think he would have mentioned it.
Probably nothing or Steve would have mentioned it too.
Steve is quite good at presenting all, the information available to him
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