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Post by rollingthunder on Feb 28, 2023 20:39:51 GMT
The criteria should be: Who is that person, where was he, was he in a position to observe. If the answers to those three questions does not establish the person's bona fides, then that person is no damned good as a source. I am just fed up with all of these tribal stories, and confusing or obfuscating place locations. Tell me for instance, on that battlefield circa 1890 and today, what does "Hill where the stones are" mean. The whole goddamned place is full of hills and stones. It's true what you say, the only place we can be sure of identifying is when those sources say: "The site where the Monument is now." |
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Post by quincannon on Feb 28, 2023 20:55:53 GMT
True and frustrating in the extreme. When you study a battle descriptions must be specific, a "one of".
It's like saying I went to the Safeway to buy groceries. There are three of them within easy driving distance of my home. From time to time, I have shopped at all three. Who then when hearing me say I went to Safeway, knew that I meant the one on Mesa Ridge Blvd.
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Post by miker on Mar 1, 2023 2:36:59 GMT
The primary reason that people do not answer your questions, mine, or anyone else's questions is that they do not have or do not know the answer. Somehow the world we live in makes it a shameful act to say "I don't know". That's wrong, and the societal norms that brought that about, should be dispensed with. I'd be okay if I got a "hmmmm", "never thought about it", "don't know", "look here", or "I think ...", "noted", or some other response instead of crickets... |
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Post by herosrest on Mar 25, 2023 13:54:42 GMT
The criteria should be: Who is that person, where was he, was he in a position to observe. If the answers to those three questions does not establish the person's bona fides, then that person is no damned good as a source. I am just fed up with all of these tribal stories, and confusing or obfuscating place locations. Tell me for instance, on that battlefield circa 1890 and today, what does "Hill where the stones are" mean. The whole goddamned place is full of hills and stones. It's true what you say, the only place we can be sure of identifying is when those sources say: "The site where the Monument is now." Would it surprise you to learn that the monument was moved? It may have been. Maybe not but the opportunity existed.  Here is the monument as set up by Charles Roe link a great image which can be zoomed into fine detail. Notice the damage to the stonework. Incidentally, I contend that the gent stood furthest right, is imposter Frank Finkel who may, or may not have deserted as Frank Hall. The stone was reworked before the 1886, Tenth anniversary as shown HERE and there in may lay an interesting story. One which fascinated Walter M. Camp in researches he undertook. However, back to topic. What a great story though, if the Superintendent relocated the monument. Couldn't be, could it. |
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Post by herosrest on Mar 25, 2023 14:16:39 GMT
I'm swatting up the back pages of this quite wonderful topic of posts and am taking my time, since no-one's paying me for it. Horses and this battle are a grey area (sorry) which sort the riders out from pedestrians and cavalry from Indians, it seems. From the opening item, I will construct this as an example of what horses can do. Horsey people interested in the battle will then start neigh saying the poor beasts and stuff like endurance. &th Cavalry left FAL mid May 1876, and were romping around Dakota and Montana for a little over six weeks, in finest military tradition and I say this - Cavalry knew how to look after their mounts. There weren't enough of them such that a hundred and more recruits and newly mustered men were left at Powder River, in second week of June, '76 - but, it is laughable that 7th Cavalry's horses were in poor condition or poorly used. Behold what the very best in horse flesh can do in a little over 9 minutes of chaos, at 2 minutes per mile YES 30mph over 4 miles. Video is 6 minutes. Worth the watch - don't blink. We do love our horse flesh in UK as you will see from the crowds but personally I prefer mine (horses) in sausages. Yum, yum. link That distance, 4 miles 2.. furlongs, is almost inch for inch the distance from Reno's to Custer's Hill. Nelsom A Miles timed it as 15minutes (being the generous sort he was). Could those animals go further than 4 miles.....? Damn right. The Grand National, the most highly-anticipated race on the British calendar, is back. The best-known steeplechase in the world features 40 runners tackling Aintree's 30 Grand National fences over the course of four miles, 2½ furlongs. I'll add caveat. &th Cavalry's Officer cadre were cavalrymen. They knew what a given exertion under impetus would cost their commands in animals falling out (the rear). During the advance down Reno Ck. from the divide, we know that Company C (Company C alone) lost one four of men and horses into Medicine Tail's Coulee. I've taken the unfortunate habit of upper casing '7' during my tapping because of a better than rather good researchers insistance that Cooke's note which says 'B bring pacs', is rather '& bring pacs' because Cooke's ampersands resemble 'B'. So do mine............. sheesh. B bring packs. |
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Post by miker on Mar 25, 2023 14:51:42 GMT
Well. My observation about Miles at the LBH and miles in a horse event is no one is shooting at them at the time. It makes a difference.
I agree Custer knew how to take care of the horses, but the four days prior to the battle could be enough to be telling on their ability to move and/or manuever.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 25, 2023 14:57:52 GMT
It's fair to say there were some fun and games over the marches and condition of mounts, that we don't need to rake over. Thank.... or is it tanks, for an early response. You're catching worm?  |
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Post by rollingthunder on Mar 25, 2023 15:04:59 GMT
I'm swatting up the back pages of this quite wonderful topic of posts and am taking my time, since no-one's paying me for it. Horses and this battle are a grey area (sorry) which sort the riders out from pedestrians and cavalry from Indians, it seems. From the opening item, I will construct this as an example of what horses can do. Horsey people interested in the battle will then start neigh saying the poor beasts and stuff like endurance. &th Cavalry left FAL mid May 1876, and were romping around Dakota and Montana for a little over six weeks, in finest military tradition and I say this - Cavalry knew how to look after their mounts. There weren't enough of them such that a hundred and more recruits and newly mustered men were left at Powder River, in second week of June, '76 - but, it is laughable that 7th Cavalry's horses were in poor condition or poorly used. Behold what the very best in horse flesh can do in a little over 9 minutes of chaos, at 2 minutes per mile YES 30mph over 4 miles. Video is 6 minutes. Worth the watch - don't blink. We do love our horse flesh in UK as you will see from the crowds but personally I prefer mine (horses) in sausages. Yum, yum. link That distance, 4 miles 2.. furlongs, is almost inch for inch the distance from Reno's to Custer's Hill. Nelsom A Miles timed it as 15minutes (being the generous sort he was). Could those animals go further than 4 miles.....? Damn right. The Grand National, the most highly-anticipated race on the British calendar, is back. The best-known steeplechase in the world features 40 runners tackling Aintree's 30 Grand National fences over the course of four miles, 2½ furlongs. I'll add caveat. &th Cavalry's Officer cadre were cavalrymen. They knew what a given exertion under impetus would cost their commands in animals falling out (the rear). During the advance down Reno Ck. from the divide, we know that Company C (Company C alone) lost one four of men and horses into Medicine Tail's Coulee. I've taken the unfortunate habit of upper casing '7' during my tapping because of a better than rather good researchers insistance that Cooke's note which says 'B bring pacs', is rather '& bring pacs' because Cooke's ampersands resemble 'B'. So do mine............. sheesh. B bring packs. Are you trying to compare some poor brutes of cavalry with fifty days in the field on half a ration of grain, with little grass and poor quality water, with thoroughbreds who live better than a king? With food and water of the best quality. Incredible veterinary care. It can't be done. The horses of the seventh did enough to carry a soldier on their backs. |
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Post by herosrest on Mar 25, 2023 15:12:09 GMT
Certainly, the night march could have been disconcerting for the animals but the rate of movement wasn't demanding. The adventure in the dark seems to have brought difficulties to the pack train animals moreso than horses.
The point I was giving is that it was perfectly possible to reach the lower fords known a D ford or fords, today and return very quickly given the need. Going in there would have been a need and , if pulling out then likewise. I'll say that i'm a Ford B guy and the north - South fight which leaves some frustrations and difficulties. If you don't mind i'll walk through the topic and hope for a few surprises, otherwise keeping things quiet unless I have a specific knowledge.
Miles mounted his infantry on mules for a number of reasons and seems to have used them effectively out of Ft. Keogh and Miles City during 1877 and 1878. I'd guess it was as much to do with having men fitter when needed rather than any speed advantage. I gained the impression from Indian accounts read about the time, that really didn't like mixing it up with infantry and their bayonets. Who could blame them.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 25, 2023 15:17:14 GMT
I'm swatting up the back pages of this quite wonderful topic of posts and am taking my time, since no-one's paying me for it. Horses and this battle are a grey area (sorry) which sort the riders out from pedestrians and cavalry from Indians, it seems. From the opening item, I will construct this as an example of what horses can do. Horsey people interested in the battle will then start neigh saying the poor beasts and stuff like endurance. &th Cavalry left FAL mid May 1876, and were romping around Dakota and Montana for a little over six weeks, in finest military tradition and I say this - Cavalry knew how to look after their mounts. There weren't enough of them such that a hundred and more recruits and newly mustered men were left at Powder River, in second week of June, '76 - but, it is laughable that 7th Cavalry's horses were in poor condition or poorly used. Behold what the very best in horse flesh can do in a little over 9 minutes of chaos, at 2 minutes per mile YES 30mph over 4 miles. Video is 6 minutes. Worth the watch - don't blink. We do love our horse flesh in UK as you will see from the crowds but personally I prefer mine (horses) in sausages. Yum, yum. link That distance, 4 miles 2.. furlongs, is almost inch for inch the distance from Reno's to Custer's Hill. Nelsom A Miles timed it as 15minutes (being the generous sort he was). Could those animals go further than 4 miles.....? Damn right. The Grand National, the most highly-anticipated race on the British calendar, is back. The best-known steeplechase in the world features 40 runners tackling Aintree's 30 Grand National fences over the course of four miles, 2½ furlongs. I'll add caveat. &th Cavalry's Officer cadre were cavalrymen. They knew what a given exertion under impetus would cost their commands in animals falling out (the rear). During the advance down Reno Ck. from the divide, we know that Company C (Company C alone) lost one four of men and horses into Medicine Tail's Coulee. I've taken the unfortunate habit of upper casing '7' during my tapping because of a better than rather good researchers insistance that Cooke's note which says 'B bring pacs', is rather '& bring pacs' because Cooke's ampersands resemble 'B'. So do mine............. sheesh. B bring packs. Are you trying to compare some poor brutes of cavalry with fifty days in the field on half a ration of grain, with little grass and poor quality water, with thoroughbreds who live better than a king? With food and water of the best quality. Incredible veterinary care. It can't be done. The horses of the seventh did enough to carry a soldier on their backs. The initial marching was well provisioned by wagon train and as an example besides, some 70 tons of forage was dumped at Powder River when the wagons were stripped of mules for the packtrains. I'm not certain whether that supply (forage) was carried along or brought up by steamer (a goat ate my copy of Terry's book) but they were well provisioned into Powder River with a cattle herd along also. The marches were not excessive but weather is always a duifficulty. Their situation was that faced by armies across thousands of years and was quite normal. |
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Post by herosrest on Mar 25, 2023 16:08:23 GMT
This photo from The Archaeology of Historic Battlefields: A History and Theoretical Development in Conflict Archaeology by Douglas D. Scott and Andrew P. McFeaters has a very interesting photo with artifacts from outside the battlefield reservation. View AttachmentIt shows artifacts along Battle Ridge toward Ford D. Alas, it does not explain what they are. I suspect the Blue dots represent US Army artifacts. In related news, this bibliographic entry enabled me to find the publisher of the book: Scott, D. D., and Bleed, P. (1997). A Good Walk Around the Boundary: Archeological Inventory of the Dyck and other Properties Adjacent to Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument, Special Publication, Nebraska Association of Professional Archeologists and Nebraska State Historical Society, Lincoln. And it is available for 10.00 + 3.00 shipping from history.nebraska.gov or from History Nebraska 5050 N 32nd St Lincoln, NE 68504 I have the information for the contact person who is sending me the publication, but I hesitate to put it out for all to smother him with requests, but if you are interested PM me and I will provide it. I hope/suspect it will provide more information on the topic of Ford D. The artifacts information was something AZ R and myself discussed quite a while back, elsewhere. There are several illustrations of the relic field in the wild and I broke it down to find that to the west, out 900-1,000 yards - the finds were cavalry bullets consistent with fire from the northern end of Battle Ridge. The discussion took in ballistics from tha aspect of soldiers commented shootin high, up in the air. That puts a fan of Springfield bullets down those ravines in overs, and rounds skipping off ridge top slope. The other thing I punched, was the number of relics relevant to area and it came in at two - three, per acre. That's what the numbers I worked with told me. The terrain has been a busy avenue of approach to the battleground for a long time and who knows how much has been washed away and pocketed. There's an image at McCracken showing the view up and monument on horizon. In my take on things these days this was one of the routes taken by the non-coms closing in to scavenge the kills. |
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Post by herosrest on Mar 25, 2023 16:40:37 GMT
Anecdote item
There's Wolf Tooth. He knew or aquinted T.B. Marquis, as did John Stands in Timber.
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Post by rollingthunder on Mar 25, 2023 17:21:59 GMT
Are you trying to compare some poor brutes of cavalry with fifty days in the field on half a ration of grain, with little grass and poor quality water, with thoroughbreds who live better than a king? With food and water of the best quality. Incredible veterinary care. It can't be done. The horses of the seventh did enough to carry a soldier on their backs. The initial marching was well provisioned by wagon train and as an example besides, some 70 tons of forage was dumped at Powder River when the wagons were stripped of mules for the packtrains. I'm not certain whether that supply (forage) was carried along or brought up by steamer (a goat ate my copy of Terry's book) but they were well provisioned into Powder River with a cattle herd along also. The marches were not excessive but weather is always a duifficulty. Their situation was that faced by armies across thousands of years and was quite normal. No, you can't compare the physical condition of track athletes, cared for to the unsuspected limits, with horses without adequate rest, without enough food, and working on very rough terrain. After fifty days of campaign many would be in a very bad state. I'm sure if they had remuda many of those horses would have been behind with McDogall. Well, there are excellent horsemen around here who will give a good explanation. Much more qualified than mine. |
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 25, 2023 20:09:40 GMT
Well HR, I have to agree with my friend from the Iberian peninsula (hi Pachi), there was not a horse among the 7th which could live with red rum  I should know I had £2 on it at 9/1 back in 1977, £18 was a lot of money back then Well I was 18 years old  Ian
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Post by herosrest on Mar 26, 2023 13:24:21 GMT
£18 is enough for a couple of pints with change in the capital these days. Maybe enough left for a bag of crisps or two. £15 for a burger.
The video showed a bunch of horses in gallop over 4 miles. I doubt anyone frequenting our haunts has that experience. Really.
Five going six weeks in the field under the care of their rider - who completely understood the importance of their horse to their survival, fitness and welfare. I despair at times at the almost bigoted idiocy being flung around this battle. Each trooper looked to and after his horse - the horse came first and they got looked after. I guess I should throw up details of the march and supplies carried along in wagons.
You're letting yourselves down with this. Cavalry use of horses. Crook got himself into a starvation march. 7th Cavalry did not. Gallop a cavalry squadron andyouget whatthe video showed but maybe 5mph slower.
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