Never Got to Ford D

[quincannon]

Generally agree with Mac. Don't think Custer's battalion entered the valley, but that is a minor and largely inconsequential point. Lame White Man moving on the west side of the river and through the northern part of the village makes the most sense vice moving along the bluffs on the east side I think. Regardless him ending up down in the Ford B area, and in time to deal with Company C is indicative of a sequential time spaced move in Custer's withdrawal process, if Mac is correct and LWM movements were motivated by visual observation of Company L moving south. The other testimony of, I forget by whom right at the moment, that the pace of those companies moving south was rather deliberate adds credence to the theory though.

Pachi: I will look for that movie or better yet consult with my 18 year old college freshman as of yesterday friend, who knows a heck of a lot more about old movies in her 18 years on this earth than I ever did in my 80 on the same planet. Her collection is extensive.

Mike: Chuck is convinced of at least four. I am not wedded to five. As to the lack of markers on the west face of Cemetery Ridge and that general area, we really do not have any record of where these markers were originally place do we? If we do then it is unknown to me. Kellogg's was moved from where Gibbon found him. Where to get that info is something I would really like to know if it indeed exists. My speculation though is that there were several, maybe many in that area and were moved from their original location when the administrative area of the park was constructed, and probably at the same time the Kellogg marker was moved. The reason was the movement of the original cemetery from LSH to its present location and the establishment of the aforementioned admin area. After all who wants half a million people per annum trapsing all over your back yard looking for some obscure piece of marble.

[yanmacca]

Whats up with you people, cant you find a basic movie on line, youtube has a huge collection free to watch link

Ian

[miker]

Aug 15, 2023 14:27:14 GMT quincannon said:

Mike: Chuck is convinced of at least four. I am not wedded to five. As to the lack of markers on the west face of Cemetery Ridge and that general area, we really do not have any record of where these markers were originally place do we? If we do then it is unknown to me. Kellogg's was moved from where Gibbon found him. Where to get that info is something I would really like to know if it indeed exists. My speculation though is that there were several, maybe many in that area and were moved from their original location when the administrative area of the park was constructed, and probably at the same time the Kellogg marker was moved. The reason was the movement of the original cemetery from LSH to its present location and the establishment of the aforementioned admin area. After all who wants half a million people per annum trapsing all over your back yard looking for some obscure piece of marble.

If we had validated documentation that markers were moved and this information was available to the public, I would agree.  Thus they are unverified and are nothing but Oral Tradition.  Oral History at the same instant that the person with true knowledge dies.

I'm not inclined to adopt Indian Art/paintings as a map, nor the use of omens, portents, and signs or reading livers and other organs of various animals.

Once again, I am not saying I'm right.  I am merely pointing out, given certain elements of doctrine and plotting what may be a reasonable path, that it is unlikely L and C could have gone all the way to Ford D and then returned to Calhoun Hill in time to be destroyed where they were indicated by marker placement.

If i thought anyone gave a crap, I would recalculate the time given that "Walk Around the Boundary" posits.  But now I don't give a crap and I'm pretty sure no one else gives a crap either.

[miker]

Aug 15, 2023 14:54:39 GMT yanmacca said:

Whats up with you people, cant you find a basic movie on line, youtube has a huge collection free to watch link

Ian

What's up with you people?  Why do you post idle chit-chat in threads not related to movies.  This is opposed to telling someone to watch a given movie in order to better visualize something.  The place for discussion of movies is here:   greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/board/62/movies-western-custer-battle-bighorn.

I for one would like to see the blather moved away from the specific topics and for the moderators to delete or move those items to more appropriate threads.

I freely admit, I sometimes from to time to time interject superfluous comments in my own and other peoples threads.

[yanmacca]

Bollocks!!!
Who do you think you are.
I you want my posts taken down then contact a moderator.
I am sure he would take great delight in jumping on you when you go off topic.
I have packed more into this site then you will ever do, and been took off topic many times.

Prize tit!!!!

[miker]

I am a person who can present my own opinions just like you do.

You are a moderator. Please remove all the extraneous bull shit from all of my threads, even when I have ventured off topic. If you were a real moderator, you would keep things tight.

I bet you do not know the difference between a tit and a tit.

sod off.

[yanmacca]

Do you want my job, its there if you want it.
I am removing nothing, I see you never jumped on the other movie posts on this thread, which shows your true colours as a person.
Of course i know the difference between tit and tits I have tits in our garden

Sod off, I may do just that

[quincannon]

Mike I do not know if they were ever there, but that is not the point. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Speculating again, were they there and were they moved there may be some evidence of that is some dusty filing cabinet somewhere, and I would not think that filing cabinet would be in the possession of the National Park Service. In the time frame those markers would have been moved the War Department controlled the battlefield. It is just possible that people over the years have been looking in the wrong place. The more likely answer though is that if the markers were there, then no one gave two hoots in hell about moving them and such a possible move would go completely unrecorded. I just don't know, and am not afraid to say so.

Ian: My preference is to watch movies on a big screen and not on a computer. I also prefer to discuss movies with my movie historian friend. She is the one who gave me insights into those scene steals I mentioned in Yellow Ribbon from Judge Priest. I think she was 12 or 13 at the time, and it was before I first watched Judge Priest. She is a very bright and well informed young lady. Yes, I do know how to access You Tube, and watched the complete Sharpe series in that manner. Certainly, you are not telling me what my preferences are or should be, are you?

[miker]

Aug 15, 2023 16:01:55 GMT quincannon said:

Mike I do not know if they were ever there, but that is not the point. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 

Noted.

[yanmacca]

Sorry QC, I forgot you watch stuff on your pc, we have youtube on our TV, it's like flicking over to a new channel.

[quincannon]

What is good for the goose is not necessarily available to the gander. For me the fun though is not in the watch especially, but in discussing the movie both before and after viewing with someone attuned to picking out the art form. There is a scene in another Ford movie, "Young Abe Lincoln" with Fonda that pre-stages Lincoln's life journey by the simple method of walking up and over a hill at the very end of the movie. It is masterful, as is the closing scene of "The Searchers" where Ethan Edwards is framed in the doorway. They are stories within the story which makes the overall movie art instead of trivial pig shit for the masses.

[yanmacca]

The golden age of film making, they knew their art back then.

Your preferences are your own, I dont care what a man does in his own home, why should I.

But I can make a suggestions, a suggestion is please invest in a smart TV, if you have already then please ignore the last line.

I invested in a smart TV a number of years ago and it changed the way I watch TV, with youtube and netflix and a host of other goodies.

As I have done for years now, I post you links to youtube stuff, a lot of it about the Ardennes, some of them are quite long and I thought it would be easier for you to enjoy them in your arm chair.

I picked up my smart TV for less then £300.

Ian

[mac]

Mike. 

I agree with pretty much all of your reply to my post.

Your assumptions were clearly stated and your calculations appropriate.

I also think your approach to evidence is entirely consistent and sound.

The lack of evidence is what makes this battle so compelling (who doesn't love a mystery).

Heck we do not even know reliably the actual clock time for any of the events.

None of the available time lines actually agree.

No one ever gets this itch scratched. We just keep looking for a way to reach that spot.

 In that spirit of discussion I offer my previous post and this:

You and I have discussed previously the notion that C,I,L moved from LSH towards Calhoun Hill by bounds. You will recall we concluded that they probably did not.

Moving to my proposed retrograde from the Northern Valley to LSH and Cemetery Ridge.

The lack of markers in the valley area, that you note, suggests to me that this part of the action ( I say it probably happened, you need not agree) was indeed well organized and that some bounding was executed.

That is if they did it and there are no markers then they did it well.

Your thoughts on this proposition?

Cheers

[miker]

No markers, no/few carbine casings indicates they either didn't go that way or they weren't Closely pursued.

No/few markers with "lots" of casings indicates a well done delay like Godfrey did from Weird Peaks.

Markers with "some" or "few" casings indicates a movement more like Reno's from the river to his hill which does not seem likely to me.

Kellog, in any event seems to be an outlier.

I probably need to consider the short move to Ford D (<= 1/2 mile) and Miles Nelson's ride from the Reno BP To LSH which I believe took 56 minutes at the walk and was unopposed.

I have to think on it.

[miker]

WHO	START	END	DEPART	DISTANCE	TIME	ARRIVE
CUSTER BN	CALHOUN HILL	TURN AROUND	1430	9698	11	1441
CUSTER BN	TURN AROUND	CEMETARY RIDGE	1441	3937	3	1444
C, L, I	CEMETARY RIDGE	GAP	1444	3937	4	1448
L	GAP	CALHOUN HILL	1448	1640	2	1450
C	CAP	CALHOUN RIDGE	1448	1968	2	1450

In response to Mac's query, I looked first at the time required for Custer to move from Calhoun Hill a shorter distance toward Ford D, about 1/2 mile past the Park Entrance and then for units to reach their final positions after the turn around. This time I have them moving on the ridges versus the draw. As an Armor officer we tried to move in defiles, but these would frequent be a kill zone so I paid attention to my TR Fehrenback who said fight from ridges down into the valleys and discussed with Chuck.

Since the battle ended at about 1543, it conceivable, if there is no opposition, the entire battalion could have conducted this shorter route and made it to their final position in time to die on schedule.  BUT, I find it very difficult to believe there was no opposition, and the Indians could have occupied Calhoun Hill as early as 1443 had they grabbed the 7th by the Belt.

Next, I will address Nelson Miles Claim that Reno/Benteen could have reached Calhoun Hill and joined up with Custer before Custer's battalion was destroyed, but have to run an errand first.