Never Got to Ford D

[quincannon]

Lame White Man, a Cheyenne, was somehow involved in the early skirmishing up north. Exactly where he was I do not know, except that it was in the Ford D area. He was older and evidently well respected. Early on he understood that getting at Custer's battalion required a pincer of some nature. To that end he went south to the Ford B area where he came upon some group essentially sitting on their asses, doing little if anything. He rallied them and led them against Company C, judging from where the monument to him now stands and was KIA in the process. These were not Gaul's people, which more than likely arrived a bit sooner, but in a different quadrant from LWM

I would give you chapter and verse if I had it, I don't. All I know is that folks are starting to take a renewed look at what JSIT has to say, and that Donahue has somehow uncovered, 7th Cavalry specific artifacts in the Ford D area. According to Tom when this was presented at the LBH meeting some started to be vocal and critical until Donahue laid out proof then they shut up.

Tom currently has some health issues.

[miker]

From the little I went through, it looks to me he was up fighting E then went SE toward C CO and not all the way to B.

If they found stuff at EDIT B D that (1) it doesn’t mean he took five companies, and (2) doesn’t necessarily invalidate my time line.

I am almost certainly wrong in something.

Again , I have issues reading old maps, understanding the Indian point of view, and interpreting their drawings/paintings.

[quincannon]

You mean found stuff at D? No, it does not mean he took all five companies. It means only that something was found at D that could be identified, and according to Tom, Donahue said that they were identified by serial numbers. It also does not mean, that anyone crossed over, or even got to Ford D. I think Donahue's remarks were addressed to those that ignore JSIT, and do not believe Custer got anywhere beyond LSH. In other words the true conventionalist, those that believe it impossible to walk and chew gum at the same time. Those that light a candle every night at their private Custer shrine located in the far most corner of their Mama's basement.

[miker]

Yes I meant D. Fixed. Thanks.

[Elwood]

Aug 12, 2023 14:28:11 GMT quincannon said:

I think Donahue's remarks were addressed to those that ignore JSIT, and do not believe Custer got anywhere beyond LSH. In other words the true conventionalist, those that believe it impossible to walk and chew gum at the same time. Those that light a candle every night at their private Custer shrine located in the far most corner of their Mama's basement.

Wouldn't many of these Custerites believe that he got down towards or maybe close to Ford D?  At least that would show he was doing something not just hanging out at LSH or CR waiting for something to happen.

[quincannon]

Frankly Mister E. I do not know what they believe except the most conventional of all theories, that being that Custer, for some reason that befuddles me, leaves three companies back in the Calhoun Hill area essentially doing nothing, and he takes two companies with him toward Ford D to ostensibly do some sort of reconnaissance. While all this is taking place the initiative passes to the other folks and they proceed to surround those sitting on their asses in the rear while Custer tries to make a fight of it about three quarters of a mile away. They believe it because that is what they have all been told for nearly a hundred fifty years, and never stopped to think about what an asinine proposition it is.

Ask yourself the following questions

1) You are on high ground. Before you is arrayed about four miles worth of connected tribal circles across a river with a very limited number of crossing points. You can see all of this from where you are. Why do you need to conduct a reconnaissance?

2) Why would anyone in his right mind, if the intention was to launch an assault, divide his force, then leave 60 percent of his combat power in the rear?

The answer then to your question then is that those in Mama's basement live in the darkness of the absence of reasoned thought, despite the candle.

[miker]

My view is because no can accept that no one knows why what happened and in fact no one can accept no one know what happened.  All we know for certain is that the Custer battalion was destroyed late in June at the Little Bighorn and the units are probably arrayed as they were when they were destroyed.  We can debate crap till the end of time.  Only cavalryman get to stop at Fiddler's Green and if I get there I will ask Custer what he did.

Instead of spending time dickering over this defeat, people should study what Miles Nelson and Ranald MacKenzie did in the time between July 1876 to about June of 1877.  If we had applied those techniques in Afghanistan, we probably would kicked the Taliban and Al Qaeda's butt.

[quincannon]

Fiddler's Green. What a shame. That poor bastard Custer thought if his time ever came his stop over would be the Waldorf Astoria. He sure as hell must have been surprised

Signed

The Grand Nephew of Saint Crispin

[rollingthunder]

Aug 14, 2023 2:28:20 GMT quincannon said:

Frankly Mister E. I do not know what they believe except the most conventional of all theories, that being that Custer, for some reason that befuddles me, leaves three companies back in the Calhoun Hill area essentially doing nothing, and he takes two companies with him toward Ford D to ostensibly do some sort of reconnaissance. While all this is taking place the initiative passes to the other folks and they proceed to surround those sitting on their asses in the rear while Custer tries to make a fight of it about three quarters of a mile away. They believe it because that is what they have all been told for nearly a hundred fifty years, and never stopped to think about what an asinine proposition it is.

Ask yourself the following questions

1) You are on high ground. Before you is arrayed about four miles worth of connected tribal circles across a river with a very limited number of crossing points. You can see all of this from where you are. Why do you need to conduct a reconnaissance?

2) Why would anyone in his right mind, if the intention was to launch an assault, divide his force, then leave 60 percent of his combat power in the rear?

The answer then to your question then is that those in Mama's basement live in the darkness of the absence of reasoned thought, despite the candle.

You´re very big quincannon. Those are the two questions. Now that each one answers them to himself at his own free will

[quincannon]

You know Pachi, it is as you say, everyone must decide for themselves what and how it transpired. For me though, my method is fairly simple. I think it most likely that Custer made some tactical errors when he was deciding what to do. That was probably more personality than anything else. What I refuse to believe though is that when contact was made, or imminent he/they would not fall back on their training, and maneuver/fight in the manner that was ingrained in them. To me decisions are the things that you hope you make and they are at least 51 percent correct. Technique and procedures are more automatic response. In other words, even though you may choose to do the wrong thing, your execution of that wrong thing is pretty much the same as it would be if you had chosen the right thing.

Mrs. Miniver is on tonight. Best Greer Garson movie of them all, and a splendid piece of early WWII propaganda. Seen it I do not know how many times, but it seems just as fresh every time I do. Her Pride and Prejudice is on as I write this, but I decided not to watch it. The one with Colin Firth as Mister Darcy is the best of them all.

[rollingthunder]

"Mrs. Miniver", great movie. Speaking of movies, last week I saw "Judge Priest" by John Ford, wonderful film. That film also led me to another great work by Ford that I was unaware of: "The Sun Shines Bright."

[quincannon]

Judge Priest. Great movie. Did you notice that Ford lifted a couple of scenes from Priest and inserted them into Yellow Ribbon. "Quincannon your breath smells like a hot mince pie" was one, the other was the grave yard scene where Brittles is making his report to Martha were direct redos from Judge Priest.

Will Rogers was great at Judge Priest. Every one of the southern crackers who would still subjugate human beings in 2023 should be made to watch Judge Priest until their goddamned eyeballs fall out

I have never seen Sun Shines Bright. A full report if you please.

[rollingthunder]

It´s the continuation of Judge Priest but with other interpreters. Absolutely delicious. This movie should be seen by everyone. Here Judge Priest faces a yankee Prosecutor for re-election as Judge. It's wonderful, a great movie.

Although the plot is that and in a comedy key, what the film is really about is about human kindness.

[mac]

Just to pitch in here; it has been my conviction for a long time that Custer never went to Ford B. Any time line that allows time for that is, from my perspective, "wasting the time". 

It is time that Custer used to get all 5 down to the Northern valley. Why waste time at an obvious no go when there is another crossing further on?

My feeling (note just my feeling) is that Custer quickly saw that the door at Ford D was firmly locked. My feeling is he intended to return South to reunite his command. To that end he sent Company L out of the valley probably before starting the general withdrawal. The purpose was to have them move South and hold the way open for him.

By the time they reached Calhoun Hill the return route had been occupied by Gall et al.

Lame White Man had been a first responder at Ford D as he was a retired warrior and his job was to protect the women and children.

I feel he saw Company L leave and thought they may be going to attack at Ford B. That is how he came to be at Greasy Grass when Company C deployed to FF Ridge.

Must go.

Cheers

[miker]

Noted.

I never said Custer went to Ford B in my analysis. I said two "bands" of Indians used Ford B to move toward Calhoun Hill.

Chuck said Lame White Band moved from Ford D to the vicinity of Ford B and then up to the Calhoun Hill/Ridge Complex.

Custer moved along Cedar and Medicine Tail Coullee to get to Calhoun Hill which is where I start my analysis.

It is obvious that there were two engagements from the Boniface Map in MTC.    There is no reason given that fact that Indians wos from Greene's book of 7CAV at Ford B.

Other than information  from the recent presentation reported  by Chuck but apparently not available to the broader public, there is no verified evidence I have found placing 7CAV at Ford D.   Kellogg was not found at Ford D. While his market was moved at least twice, I could agree with assuming that would mark the furthest penetration of 7CAV units. 

The book "A walk around the boundary" lists artifacts near or along the road to the LBH entrance shows  evidence of 7CAV elements within about a half mile of the park and spent bullets elsewhere along the route.  No one has provided verified evidence in response to my queries.   While Steve has indicated he has information related to various events and findings on the battlefield, he is ethically unable to provide detailed verifief   information. 

The purpose of my analysis was to try to determine if Custer could have moved from Calhoun Hill to Ford D and been able to reach the positions they are known to have occupied  and where they were destroyed. 

I listed my assumptions and determined from a given start time at the doctrinal speed, the units could not have reached those positions in the postulated time the battle ended. 

I am open minded about whether or not the Custer Battalion split into two elements or moved as a whole toward Ford D.

Here are some points to consider:

Given at least two disengagement were fought in MTC, you have to ask would a commander move toward a destination in a single movement or would he move by bounds?  To me, the battlefield reflects movement by bounds.  Chuck is convinced that he moved with all five companies.  

However, it can also indicate a double envelopment by Indians moving from Ford D and MTC.

Why would the Indians not continue the pursuit of Custer from MTC to the NW. 

Why are there no markers representing casualties, other than Kellogg, from Ford D to Cemetery Ridge?  Kellogg could have been left behind after the turn back. 

If Custer did not move by bounds, there would have been a trail of bodies from his furthest penetration (e.g. Kellogg's marker) to cemetery ridge/LSH.  Compare Reno's breakout from the woods with Godfrey's rear guard/delay/defensive cover execution with the lack of such evidence of a withdrawal from Ford D. 

Don't tell me about markers that were moved or buried under parking lots.   If they excavate the parking lot and find something, then I'll believe it. (King Richard was found under one.). Otherwise, it is just an assumption. 

If you disagree with my speeds, consider that my units typically moved on roads at speeds of 15-20 MPH and usually only about 10-15 cross-country.  While they could moved faster (especially the M1) target acquisition, engagement, and navigation is difficult at speeds greater than that.  If you can show my assumptions are wrong or replace them with facts, I will reconsider my analysis. 

You are free to challenge my assumptions and present new assumptions and/or facts to facilitate a different conclusion.  Your feelings don't provide proof of anything. Neither do my assumptions.  I admit I'm probably wrong.  Your continued attitude about you're being right is tiresome.  Your "new look" thread was just another portrayal of your same old opinions. You would fit right in with the scholarship of Phillip  Thomas Tucker's three books about the Little Bighorn.  (He too is a PhD.).

Custer screwed the pooch. If you want to know how to fight the Indians read Yellowstone Command by Miles Nelson or books about COL Ranald Mackenzie.