Never Got to Ford D

[miker]

I have spent a lot of time thinking about the Ford D scenario which is so highly regarded by the group and I think it’s wrong.  If you are starting here, you need to go to this thread and then come back:   greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/thread/1082/ford-prelude-destruction


Here is my reasoning. In war, only the simple succeeds, but even the simple is very hard. Do you think the Indians would have let Custer out of MTC without pressure? Do you think they would just let him sashay up to Ford D and come back essentially unopposed? No. They would pressure him the whole way. Some move North along Cedar Coulee, others move along the river toward Ford B, up across Ford B from the village, and others – mostly Cheyanne – from the Village up to Fords C or D. Grab him by the belt and kick him in the nuts. Once you make contact, don’t let go.  Find the bastards, then pile on.



Bear with me through the thoughts below.

T+0

Here is the situation after the recon party returns at T=0 the actual time could be around 1530-1600 Local. The time span can be anything between +/- 5 Minutes, perhaps more. I am not sure how fast the horses can move. Probably faster than I think, but not so quick as the Indian Ponies. Now It’s about time, distance, and fighting prowess.

[miker]

T+10.

This could be as early as T+5 or as late as t+15 or an even greater time interval.  I am sort of winging this.




L has occupied Calhoun Hill and formed a skirmish line E and SE, C, E, and F are moving, and I has oriented to protect them as they move NW. Here is the situation. The arrows are not to indicate particular bands, just a sense of how the Indians are moving, using the nooks and crannies of the terrain and every possible fold to conceal themselves, move forward, and press the enemy.  We can argue which companies are where, but as an anchor we have the company positions as indicated by their markers as a clue as to where they fell.  The markers I believe could be +/-100meters off of where the body actually was and some could have been drug more by the Indians and again by the burial parties, or later events as the battlefield progressed from a kill zone to a national monument over time.

Now its time for a commercial break while I execute husbandly duties.

Feel free to discuss, but stay focused until I am back with T+20 activities and beyond.

[quincannon]

I love that enlarged map your using Mike, and I certainly like the graphics as well.

Your scenario is rather inconsistent though with the complete Cheyenne narratives, as well as some physical evidence.

The only opposition Custer faced as he was moving north was from Wolf Tooth, and while Wolfie was harassing the bat crap out of him, and made every effort to stay in pursuit as Custer's battalion attempted to break contact with him, and move northward, there is no evidence that there was any general pursuit by others coming from the Reno fight at that juncture. They would come, but not yet. The whole idea of grabbing the enemy by the belt buckle and hanging on, first require a pair of hands to grab with.

I am much more convinced that this was a classic anvil and hammer. The Cheyenne were the anvil in the north, and the Sioux, with some Cheyenne, the hammer descending upon Custer from the south. All those red arrows of yours, I believe accurately depict the hammer falling, but that would come about a half hour after you have it. C, I, and L were trying to get their butts off of the anvil only to fall afoul of the hammer's down stroke.

That's how I see it. and I am going to take a nap. Sir Scruffy insists.

[miker]

OK. Here's a little bit more. The red arrows are not supposed to represent the size of the Indian Force, just the fact they are pushing up constantly as more warriors flock to the fight. I tried smaller ones at first, but they get lost in the map to my crappy eye sight.

My husbandly (and fatherly) duties included taking a nap, preparing the evening feast, emptying the garbage, picking up the daughter, buying provisions, cooking, and delivering the resulting feast to my bride.

T+20

L and C form a skirmish line-oriented E and SE (maybe some to N as well)
I, E, and F continue to move NE

Indians of course continue to press forward.



Soon, it will start to get interesting.

[miker]

T+30

L and C continue to skirmish
I occupies a position in the draw behind Battle Ridge oriented N.
E and F move through L and C toward LSH.

Indians are pursuing

Part of me want to visualize the scene in Zulu when the Brits form the two line reserve and advance by ranks to drive the Zulu out of the compound, but in this case, the Pony Soldiers are doing it backwards from horseback to keep[ the Indians at bay while the retrograde and redeploy.




Now that you mention it Chuck, the battlefield does look awash with hostiles.  Oh well, I'm not changing it again.  But if I could do it, I would envision the movement over time from above like a slime mold or my other favorite, the Finnish motti attack on Russians in the snowy forest.  www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbEirySHYXc

[quincannon]

Then again you could consider the attack of the Warrior Snow Maidens, against Boris Gutinov, when Boris tried to do Rocky asunder. But, you must first consider was the success of the Finn's attack attributable, to the forest, the snow, or the motti? The eternal question, second only in importance to - Did Dandy's poop stink.

Save Moosesilvania at all cost. No mission To Difficult, No Sacrifice To Great, Duty First  - Allons - Keelhaul the Cavalry
    
Still like the damned map, and the red graphics tell a story, no words can.

[miker]

T+40
L is starting to Break.
C Breaks, some run WNW into the draws and other N to try to join up with C
I holds its position in the draw behind Battle Ridge
E and F occupy LSH and Cemetery Ridge.
Wier may now be at Wier Point and see the dust and smoke.

Indians are closing and pressuring C and L



The question here is, why are the breaking so fast? They held fairly steady on Nye-Cartwright, but it could be because it was a long-range duel which gave a small advantage to the cavalry with longer range, but as the enemy closes, they lose their nerve.

[miker]

T+50
L starts to breaks and flees NE toward I.
C is broken/destroyed.
I holds its position in the draw behind Battle Ridge
E and F deployed vic LSH.

Indians have broken through C and L and rolling up I (which I have portrayed as orienting N rather than SE which would have made more sense.)
Cheyanne are starting massing NW of E and F, perhaps unintentionally forming an anvil for the Sioux coming up from the SE as the hammer.



Again, do not take the red arrows as an indicator of the number of Indians in each group nor as their actual positions.  It is just trying to show their flow as they carefully and skillfully use the terrain to close and attack the force.  And remember the time step = 10 min +/- 5 minutes.

[quincannon]

Not going to comment on the first map. We disagree here and we both know why.

Second Map: Henryville mislabeled. Should be in the creek bed shown, between the words DEEP And COULEE.

Let's say you have E and F correctly depicted on Cemetery and Last Stand Hill for the sake of argument. Why are either of them where they are? Surely if Custer was in difficulty up there with only two companies, his first action would be to pull those two companies together. If on the other hand there were originally four or five companies, then those positions would be more in line with those extra companies having withdrawn, leaving E and F as a covering force.

We need to talk off board about those Leo 2's being sent to Ukraine. Good move I would say. Leo 2 A6 and A7's are particular favorites of mine. The Leo 2 A4 is an easier one to model though.

[miker]

Chuck. By first map do you mean the T+0 map?

If so, the cartridge cases as illustrated by the Bonifade map, in my view show a two company front. I label them E and we both know why.

But, it could also be the whole battalion went there and formed a “short” skirmish line and then move NW snd formed another. I admit my mental view of the battlefield did. It previously think that way. No I have something new to think about.

By map do you mean the T+10 map?

When I resized the map to focus the picture somethings jumped around. I’ll check them all, correct, and snd repost.

Thanks.

[azranger]

Hi Miker and welcome


There are artifacts north of the NPS  boundary some are down Battle Ridge Extension an others along the area of the old entrance road within 80 yards of the river at Gibbons crossing.  How do you address them?

Regards

Steve

[quincannon]

T+40 map. the next to last one you posted.

My comments on E and F positions were based on the T+50 map.

Figured that was the case with Henryville, but could not be sure, as I am not altogether sure how you had that map resized.

Snowed here last night, cold as a well digger's ass, pulled out my long pants, and three the camo cut offs in the wash.

[miker]

Jan 23, 2023 17:46:29 GMT azranger said:

Hi Miker and welcome


There are artifacts north of the NPS  boundary some are down Battle Ridge Extension an others along the area of the old entrance road within 80 yards of the river at Gibbons crossing.  How do you address them?

Regards

Steve

Hi Steve, 

As I started this scenario, I did not personally have any references showing artifacts along those areas.  I recently became aware (or possible became 'reawared" of a photo showing them some in that region, but I don't have any information about what the artifacts are.  Nor am I aware of any bodies.  This morning, I found how to get the publication A Good Walk Around the Boundary: Archaeological Inventory of the Dyck and Other Properties Adjacent to the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument by David Scott and Peter Bleed and it is on the way.  I am not sure yet how to treat these finds and do not know if they will blow my theory apart or not.

Thanks for the 'rewelcome'.


Mike

[miker]

Jan 23, 2023 16:30:37 GMT quincannon said:

Not going to comment on the first map. We disagree here and we both know why.

Second Map: Henryville mislabeled. Should be in the creek bed shown, between the words DEEP And COULEE.

Let's say you have E and F correctly depicted on Cemetery and Last Stand Hill for the sake of argument. Why are either of them where they are? Surely if Custer was in difficulty up there with only two companies, his first action would be to pull those two companies together. If on the other hand there were originally four or five companies, then those positions would be more in line with those extra companies having withdrawn, leaving E and F as a covering force.

We need to talk off board about those Leo 2's being sent to Ukraine. Good move I would say. Leo 2 A6 and A7's are particular favorites of mine. The Leo 2 A4 is an easier one to model though.

Gotcha.  Again, I am not claiming any position as 'correct' but perhaps showing a rough center of mass and size for the map scale of how much terrain they could occupy.  Regarding their movement, I placed them there because that's where the ended up and the terrain seems to support having two companies facing NW, two SE, and one in the middle in reserve.  My intent was to position them where the markers indicate where the soldiers fell.  I am probably off from where they were.

Regarding Henryville, You are indeed correct.  I overlooked it on every map till you pointed it out.  I'll go back and fix them and repost them, with a note explaining the correction.

Thanks

[miker]

T+60

I under attack
E and F occupy LSH and are under attack.