Ford B: Prelude to Destruction

[herosrest]

Taking the point of discussion, a handful of people who survived would have been at that terrain with Custr. Martini when Custer went there and then with Benteen not too much later on. Kanipe, who was sent back from there and who could see the dust of the packtrain up the backtrail in Reno Ck. The balance of sightings were from the valley and this would have been what scouts present were talking of in their interpretted and translated accounts. Then of course, it assists making sense of the mishmash of recorded comment in Martin's 1879 testimony. Nothing earth shattering but first person participant two yards behind Custer.

[herosrest]

In terms of the topic, my thinking as you know is that Ford D is the result of a collective history which was put in place by the re-enactments undertaken from 35-40 years after and onwards to 1926, when Ford D was undertaken by 7th Cavalry during the 50th anniversary.

It was all about Ford B, a shoot and scoot in the valley and an avalanche of warriors washing along the bluffs and Cedar Coulee from Reno, as Benteen arrived and............... unsaddled his companies.   I'm heading back to my bunker. There's a Putin about.

[miker]

Jan 31, 2023 17:30:43 GMT quincannon said:

If I remember correctly the original concept for the Sheridan was as a replacement for the M56 SPAT, a tracked, open top vehicle, carrying a 90mm gun, designed to equip the anti-armor platoons in battle groups. My battle group had them (6 as I recall), although I understand European based battle groups used M47 tanks in their stead. They were fast, had a good gun, but no crew protection whatsoever.

I believe had that concept been fulfilled, and the Sheridan been used exclusively as a platform for the TOW missile, it would have been much more of a success. That's my thought anyway for what it is worth. I really do not know how many times the U S Army must be hit over the head, before they realize that a light tank has no place on the battlefield. Look at the record. The M3 and M5 Stuarts, M24 Chafee, and M41 Walker were all failures in one respect or the other. The Walker was the best of the bunch and probably quite useful in Banana Wars, but not on the contemporary conventional battlefield.

The Sheridan replaced the M41 but may have also taken the place of the M56.  It was developed with several guns.  The same gun as the M41 (a 75 if I recall), a low velocity 105mm, a 90mm I think, and of course the 152mm gun-launcher.  I think the turret race ring was the same as the M41, but I would not swear to it.  I know the M8 and maybe the Stingray race wing was the same as the M41 so a new turret could be placed on the old hull.  The M8 also has a120mm gun version and GD put a M1 turret with 120mm onto old M60 hulls.  None of these seemed to work out.

[miker]

Jan 31, 2023 17:30:43 GMT quincannon said:

Back to the subject at hand. Do all these things really matter and are they an aide to understanding what happened? You cannot know, what cannot be known. Suffice to say, the only real thing that can be gained of any value for the future, and that is why we study battle, for the future, is Custer made a grave tactical error in going north of Ford B. All the rest is unnecessary, and no more than of mild interest, to anyone interested in the study of battle. It does not even matter why he did it. He did it and that is all that matters.

They don't matter a whit because what the 7th did with the information they had is unknowable.  All we know for sure is they got whacked somewhat near where the markers now lay.

Why is important to me?  I cannot find a place in GoogleEarth that has LOS to Ford B.   It bugs me.  When I look at my map, put my straight edge on 3411 and Ford B I get about 3300-3400 meters and it doesn't look like you could see the Ford to me from my map recon or GoogleEarth.  But I look at the picture above which seems to show it and would likely reveal the village.   If I knew the grid, I could run the ViewShed with 2.0 - 3.0 meters above ground and get a better appreciation.  But the picture above does not look like the map to me.  I have to look more.  I just want to know.  It bugs me.

EDIT:  I think 3411 is at about 13T 313684.00 m E 5044234.00 m N or LATLONG  45.500000° -107.230000°.  The view shed I get is below.

The big thing I learned is from the book A Good Walk which convinced me that Custer attempted, at least with two companies, to get to Ford D and were turned back.  Since they did not go very far, the timing might work for them to go there and back again just in time to get whacked after C, L, and I were whacked.  I just want to figure out the timing.  There may be other information about the negates that.  This leads me to favor the leave 3 companies back go look with 2.  It is not the way Chuck thinks he would do it.  I'll be honest enough to say I don't know how I would do it.  (I would have probably continued up the Rosebud, the Indians would have escaped, and maybe whacked Gibbon/Terry instead of Custer.)

[quincannon]

That's because there isn't one Mike. There might be a line of sight to one of the crossing points at Ford B, but there are and where then more than one crossing point, none of which are militarily significant, but taken together as a whole could be if you are coming west to east, but not east to west.

Chuck might look with two, but they would be two individuals vice one, maybe, perhaps, might, not two companies.

The amount of forces you use in a reconnaissance is the same decision process you use in deciding everything else. It is based upon the mission. I see no mission directed toward D that requires an armed reconnaissance, or reconnaissance in force. I do not see being a mile or more out ahead as and advance guard, with the main body sitting on its ass either. If you wanted to see what was at D, send one soldier that could see beyond his nose, that was reasonably intelligent, and fluent in the English language, Those are all that the mission requires, seeing, intellect, and the ability to speak. Fast horse would probably be of benefit too. I am an Infantryman, we do not send half battalions to blunder around, where one soldier blundering around will do quite nicely.

[miker]

I can support your solution to Ford D. I might send a four for reconnaissance. You want to make sure you get information back.

I think the best thing he could have done is gone back to Reno Hill. He might have been able to defend it with five. Reno snd Benteen would have been an unforeseen bonus and he might now look brilliant. Water would be a problem.

2nd best defend Calhoun Hill. Not because it’s key terrain. But it’s defensible terrain. Water. There’s a problem. Or lack there of.

I think my curiosity is almost satisfied. Unless I find a revealing book.

There’s other stuff to think about. Like Cowpens and/or Yorktown. Closer than LBH snd happier endings.

[deadwoodgultch]

Mike, you know what people say about opinions and all that I have expressed above, is simply that, opinion. Predicated upon my numerous trips to the battlefield and the terrain walked. I also have spent much time wit Custer fan boys at the Little Bighorn Associates conferences and lock step opinions don't sit well with me. Chuck is a little more visceral regarding the group than I. Blame for all things bad only start with words that begin with B or R. Gut feelings, luck, and not conveying plans will only take you so far. So I look for trained reasons. One must look for what they are comfortable with until proven wrong.

I will be in FL over the next 2.5 weeks or so, plan is fluid, I do know that I am stopping at Patrick AFB/space Base. Make sure you keep the weather warm.

Regards,
Tom

[miker]

I'll do what I can. At least it is not hurricane season

[herosrest]

There is a view or two of feet wet in the upper Ford B HERE which shows that it would be an incredible fluke which observed anything in the river from highground upstream and certainly nothing atall in Medicine Tail Coulee until clear of the view shed area which can be measured, if you have one running.

I'd like to say that. 'That'. 

Regards.


Added

[quincannon]

You are absolutely correct Thomas, I do have a visceral attitude toward any one person or group who have an adversarial relationship with the truth, and have that relationship not from lack of knowledge, mistake, or mischance, but have it with the deliberate intention to deceive. One must take note of the adage, that if you lie down with dogs, don't be surprised if you are infested with fleas.

[miker]

I guess I am too dumb to know what I am looking at on the masthead picture above. I am led to believe that that is from 3411 and it is showing Ford B. I have to say that it does not look to me like the river is 3400 meters away from the viewer. Request enlightenment. I feel some of said it does show that and others say nay.

Help me.

[quincannon]

You are led to believe rightly. It was taken at Benchmark 3411, so says the person who took the photo Steve Andrews.

You were led to believe wrongly that it shows Ford B, unless of course your name is Clark Kent, you were raised in Smallville, work for a newspaper called the Daily Planet, try your best to get into Lois Lane's knickers on a regular basis, think Jimmy Olson is an incipit little twit, and usually change your clothes in a telephone booth.

Not sure what you mean about the river being 3400 meters away from the viewer. It is not. It is at the foot of the bluffs the photographer was standing on.

[miker]

Jan 31, 2023 13:12:30 GMT deadwoodgultch said:

To be fair I already knew where the ford was when I first viewed it from Weir and there was activity there in the reenactors camp.

Regards,
Tom

Tom

I just can't let this go.  I may be assuming too much.  Are you saying you could see Ford B itself or you saw riders in the vicinity of Ford B at the riding acadamy?

[miker]

Feb 1, 2023 2:40:42 GMT quincannon said:

You are led to believe rightly. It was taken at Benchmark 3411, so says the person who took the photo Steve Andrews.

You were led to believe wrongly that it shows Ford B ...

Not sure what you mean about the river being 3400 meters away from the viewer. It is not. It is at the foot of the bluffs the photographer was standing on.

ah. I am becoming less befuddled.   Somehow I keep conflating and misinterpreting things that are written here. 

3411 - got it. 

NOT Ford B - I concur.  Its some portion of the river close to 3411. 

3400 meters. Not to the river.  Straight line Distance to ford B from 3411. 

I think I can close this chapter now.    I kept thinking, in spite of looking at Feeds map that martini saw the main village but it appears it is this smaller village of Spotted Owl.  He was no where close.  Custer had yet to see the main village. 

So now I think there are three bands NE of the village. 

The people running away from the Lone Teepee which Reno is being sent after.  Possibly a fellow named Turning Bear. 

Spotted Owl's band. 

Wolf Tooth's band. 

[quincannon]

I am at a loss to understand what Martini saw, didn't see, imagined, or otherwise. The sum total of his published statement seem completely disconnected.

The only things about Martini I am sure about are, he was present on 25 June 76. spoke Italian fluently and could blow a trumpet. Other than that it is largely a mystery. I am not saying here that he was untruthful. I don't know that. What I am saying though is parts of what he has to say do not match other parts, and some of what he is saying seem to be completely disconnected with what else we know to have been going on when he made his ride.