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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 29, 2022 10:57:03 GMT
Fred Wagner, friend, writer, historian, and short time member of this board passed away this past Sunday. Fred fought liver cancer for sometime. I had known this for 8 weeks or so. Chemo was very tough. I spoke with him twice and he was even willing to share during this difficult time.
Those of us who had the opportunity and pleasure to spend time with Fred at conferences and at the battefield will forever cherish those moments.
My thoughts and prayers are with Lisa and family.
Thanks and go with God my Friend.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 29, 2022 13:02:10 GMT
I always liked Fred, he was always very kind to me. He shared documents and sent many free items at his own expense, this was to a man thousands of miles away who he had never met.
He always managed to mention Susan in his replies to me too, he also spoke of his love for Lisa.
I remember one of his posts regarding me visiting the LBH, he said he would make a special journey just to meet me, so I will never forget those words.
To Fred, one of the best. RIP.
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Nov 30, 2022 22:55:44 GMT
I am saddened by Fred's passing as he was a very gracious individual answering questions via PMs. I extend my condolences to his family. Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Dec 7, 2022 3:12:27 GMT
I am so saddened by Fred's passing that it has taken me a couple of days before I could say something. He was always a gentleman to me even if we didn't always agree. I know that some people disagree with his approach to LBH but his work has opened dialogs about a subject we all are interested in.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Dec 7, 2022 7:46:15 GMT
I think Fred's work on the battle is a must have for anyone studying it. I know, from Fred's perspective, we had some rocky patches in our relationship; which I would love to have smoothed with him in a personal meeting. I am sorry I could not make this happen, but I am pleased that our last communication showed me that he understood the high regard I had for him and his work. Cheers Fred.
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Post by Elwood on Dec 10, 2022 18:06:11 GMT
I'm seeing Strategy of Defeat at LBH at amazon, this is same Fred Wagner, correct? Recommended? It's show excellent reviews including one from Greg Michno, who've I've read.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 10, 2022 18:50:50 GMT
Yes that is the same Fred. I really enjoyed that book but I had a few issues with the Custer/Yates scout with Keogh left on battle ridge.
He has wrote a couple of good books, if you want to know who was who at the battle then check out "participant's"
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Post by quincannon on Dec 10, 2022 23:23:34 GMT
What Ian has trouble with I have a lot of trouble with Elwood, lots and lots of trouble.
Leaving Keogh with three companies on Battle Ridge makes no tactical sense. Going to the Ford D area with only two companies makes even less. Here are the reasons for my heartburn:
1) Wagner postulates that Custer with Yates and two companies in tow went to the Ford D area on a scout. There is no modern military counterpart of a scout. It's either a reconnaissance, or a reconnaissance in force. If it was intended as a reconnaissance how many pairs of eyes do you need to find out that which you wish to know, a hundred, or will one pair do nicely? If it is a reconnaissance in force then what do you need such a stylized maneuver for, given the totality of the circumstances that faced Custer? Send two up there and leaving three back, as Wagner has it, also violates an informal tactical principle of never fight (or potentially fight) for the same ground twice. Were it a reconnaissance, or reconnaissance in force the intent of the information you gather is to conduct another part of your operation as a follow up. So, Custer sashays to Ford D, sees what he wants to see and either goes back to pick up the other three before he can attack, or alternatively calls the other three forward. Meanwhile a gap is created between force A and force B, and the enemy has a vote in potentially filling that gap forcing combat over the same ground twice.
2) No one can give me any good reason over the last fifteen years on these boards why Custer would leave three companies behind out of contact on Battle Ridge in the Calhoun/Keogh area. Presumably there were no Indians back there when Custer would have left. Logic tells you that. Secondly where Wagner places these three companies you cannot see Ford B, so that eliminates that reason. Third, anyone who thinks that Custer left them there waiting for Benteen to arrive considering that Custer had just traversed that area, knew how difficult it would be for Benteen to get his trains over it in some timely manner, are the same people who think that the Sugar Plum Fairy is the causal factor for the Bluebird of Happiness to fly up your nose.
Wagner was a decent man, once a good friend, but I do believe that he put aside all the lessons he learned in the Basic Course and Ranger School at Benning and somewhere along the line bought into the made up story of the Custer portion battle promulgated over the years by those who had neither the intellect or the common sense ability to not just go on where the bodies were found, but understand that those bodies were cavalrymen, the arm of mobility, whose main weapon was not carbine or saber, but movement. To those who fall in that category, those monuments represent to them something unmovable, frozen in time, and space, and they build a scenario of events around them.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 11, 2022 19:58:34 GMT
It was a sad day when you two fell out. That was a crazy period of time, lots of trouble with the Irish man and Diane I recall. Remember Gatewood, he jacked in after Wild got booted off. I bet Wild dosent know about Fred, he will have a shock next time he visits, which he does from time to time.
Ian
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 11, 2022 20:04:38 GMT
Elwood, I would still urge you to buy "Strategy of Defeat" as it is still a great book, Fred managed to mold together tons of accounts made by survivors to press his claim, the build up is very good and the Reno battle in the valley is great, then you have the Benteen scout and Reno hill too, all well done.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Dec 11, 2022 20:51:15 GMT
Ian I could not agree with you more about Fred's work on the Reno valley fight, and all that transpired following the link up between Reno and Benteen. In fairness to all concerned he had much more solid material to work with. That part of his work will be his eternal legacy. It will stand the test of time. It will be THE SOURCE that people turn to first for a hundred years.
To me it is totally ironic that in trying to do what is completely impossible in telling the Custer part of the story, he produced the most complete telling of the story of the battle fought figuratively "on the other side of the hill"
Wish I was telling him that instead of telling you.
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Post by Elwood on Dec 13, 2022 0:36:36 GMT
Elwood, I would still urge you to buy "Strategy of Defeat" as it is still a great book, Fred managed to mold together tons of accounts made by survivors to press his claim, the build up is very good and the Reno battle in the valley is great, then you have the Benteen scout and Reno hill too, all well done. Ian Thanks, will do, sounds really good. Is he tough on Reno?
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 13, 2022 6:31:08 GMT
No I don't think he had a go at Reno, in an article he wrote in a blbh mag, he says that Reno went down the valley in a formation of two up and one in reserve, checking out his right flank as he went, then he hit a ravine full of Indians who kicked up a dust storm.
He then reverts to other officers who say that he did the right thing in halting. He also questions the time Reno spent in skirmish as some say it was only a matter of minutes, Fred gets it to nearly 30, so it is interesting to read.
Ian
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Post by Elwood on Dec 13, 2022 13:50:16 GMT
He then reverts to other officers who say that he did the right thing in halting. He also questions the time Reno spent in skirmish as some say it was only a matter of minutes, Fred gets it to nearly 30, so it is interesting to read. Ian Sounds interesting, I will check it out, definitely. Was just curious if he tears into Reno or is somewhat more forgiving. Read where several survivors stated that had he not halted, then retreated, whole outfit would've been cut to pieces. Thanks
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 13, 2022 21:04:11 GMT
Here is a map from Freds book, I dont use the distance/yards markers because it would be possible to be that accurate, but Fred has added that the map is not to scale but the units and positions of the advance towards the village are great.
Ian
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