Location and size of the Timber

[crowsnest]

Early on when studying the fight understanding the Timber fight was always hard for me.  The LBR winds throughout the modern tree lined area.  Eventually I realized I had to envision an area that looked quite a bit different and ignore much of the farmed area.   I know in my brain what I think the Timber looked like, but I thought I'd ask the question to the group, because maybe there is different perspective.  

Of course the size and location of the Timber area alters what Reno saw, and the specific path of retreat.  I've assumed the Timber was much larger, and filled much of the area north of Reno Battle Rd east of the Interstate.  

Curious to hear other opinions on this.  

[Deleted]

It would've helpful if you posted where you think the timber was.

[quincannon]

To the best of my knowledge the "timber" was the area bisected by Otter Creek as that creek flows into the river.

Would I bet the rent money on that? No sir, I would not. Problem is that the river was lined with timber all along its length, just the same as most rivers are here in the west, as they flow through prairie land. So, what we would expect in trying to identify the specific place is that the stand of timber would most probably extend further into the prairie than other places and therefore identify the place where Reno fought, based upon contemporary testimony of those who fought there.

Then there is that pesky old Mother Nature who has the tendency to change terrain over time, drying up this, extending that, blowing over whatever.

So, I think the Otter Creek location is a good bet but, truely, I do not believe anyone really knows for sure.

I am curious though. What prompted you to ask the question in that the location itself is usually a prelude to the second question - Could Reno have defended the timber successfully, and would that defense have altered the course of the battle, specifically saving Custer in the north.

[deadwoodgultch]

If Charlie Reynolds marker is correct, two Indian markers are correct, and the unknown white marker is correct then the location is behind the Jason Pitsch old store/orang fort. This is south and east of the Garryowen post office/store. This is also south of the big bend in the river. The Creek is a good call, it is damn sure close.

If this area is correct the ground falls off precipitously behind the edges of the woods towards the river. Steve and I walked this area, I would think three companies would play hell covering this area.

Regards,
Tom

[quincannon]

Well I would think we should dismiss the idea of companies holding that area, not because there were not three companies there, that is historical fact. Companies though are deceptive to the minds eye. What Reno had was barely in excess of one full era specific company in terms of strength. I think we would be better served thinking of and discussing this matter of defense of that timber in terms of numbers of personnel.

I only mention this because over the years everyone and his brother has opined on could this place have been held. Those answering in the positive range from some very respected people in their day, to more than a few crackpots in our own.

Could Reno have successfully defended that place? The answer is YES, he could have.

What would it take to do so?

1) Three full companies would have been of great help. Absent that, Reno would have to constrict his perimeter to something smaller consistent with the number of personnel he had to man that perimeter.

2) A nearly unlimited amount of ammunition, and food for at least 48 hours. Water was available, but most likely could only be obtained during the hours of darkness. All too often people look only at the terrain when they offer opinions on if something could be defended or not. Terrain configuration is important, but certainly not the only thing that is to be considered before one says yes I can, no I can't. You must have sufficient numbers of personnel, and adequate quantities of ammunition, food, and water. Medical supplies would be nice too, but you can use some field expedients to offset not having them.

If you lack any of the items mentioned above, the answer to can I defend must be no. If you have all of the items listed above, but they are in limited quantity, the answer to can I defend is no. Therein lies the root of Reno's decision. He might not have been hungry or thirsty yet, but soon would be. What he could not sustain immediately though was the useage of ammunition. He had a very limited supply, probably sufficient for offensive operations, but certainly not enough for defense. He had already expended around fifty percent when he came off that skirmish line and into the timber. So if anyone wishes to know why Reno did what he did, then you must ask yourself,- What happens when I am out of bullets? Oh shit, I had better do something before I am.

Now, lets say Reno had all he needed, people, beans, band aids, and bullets, and decided I can hold here, and did, would it have made a difference in outcome? I am far from a mystic, or tea leaf reader, nor do I have god like visionary powers, but I have been willing to go out on a limb if I feel strongly about something. I feel strongly about this. IT WOULD NOT HAVE CHANGED ONE DAMNED THING as far as Custer's fate was concerned. About the only thing that would be different is that the Indian force used to contain Reno, would probably be in the couple hundred range. All the rest would go after Georgie like flies on your hamburger at a picnic.

[deadwoodgultch]

The above is certainly true. Infiltration is another serious problem, not only were the Indians firing down into the timber from behind, but the timber does and did extend to end around that bend in the river into the village. To defend that north/rear of the line would be nearly impossible. It could not be cleared.

Regards,
Tom

[Deleted]

Well, here we go again. We should endeavor to be clear and concise in our communications, particular with one who is a fairly new member. Once again we need a common frame of reference: A map, labeled with landmarks is quite helpful. Where is the Garry Owen Post office? How about Charley Reynolds battlefield marker? What "two Indian Markers" What Unknown white marker? Is it unknown because no one knows where it is or it one of the many of the markers that may say "unknown" or (7th Cavalry Trooper fell here?)?

Just WTF is the Jason Pitsch old store/orang fort?  That's probably great if you were with Old Steve, but as one (of many) who has not, I have no clue about where it is.  

Here is a little hint.  IF you have a very specific set of locations in mind, how about INSERTING A GDMFSOB MAP into the picture.  Failing that, how about grid coordinates?

On modern maps, Otter Creek does not seem to be names and it now seems to be intercepted by the Reno Canal (Indian Fire!  Everybody Down!  If you stand up and mount your gonna get shot down on the Reno Canal).

Here is a map.  SW is shown.  I found the GPS location for Reynolds markers, though I couldn't find any for unknown marker, two Indian Markers, or Jason Pitsch Old Store and Fort.

In my experience I have never know a meandering river valley to have "precipitious" drops although I can imagine the area right by the bank could be pretty steep making it hard to cross in any event.



Feel free to correct or refine my labels/data.  I am not blessed with the privilidge of walking and memorizing the region and do not have an old boy network up there to take me around to obscure and cryptic locations.


What really makes the timber indefensible besides lack of ammunition and being outnumbered is the little fact the Indians have set the brush on fire. I don't know how long people would defend in there with the fire going their way and faced with the choice of burning to death or getting killed while attempting to break out, I do believe I would attempt the break out.

[quincannon]

Mike is quite correct. Using the Old Boy network in any description we give is for the birds and we should all know better.

Mike I would strongly suggest that you purchase the McElfresh LBH Map. I approximates as closely as presently possible the battle field as it existed in 1876. Otter Creek is clearly shown on that map. Additionally you and I are quite fortunate in that we know how to read a military map, and can effectively use grid coordinates to communicate locations between ourselves. Others would find it difficult without training.

Your objections, and citing infiltration as a very big concern, notwithstanding Tom, the entire length of that river bank from Ford A to Ford D was timber lined, so that cannot be considered in any decision to do, or not to do. Frankly there was no choice in the matter, when you are forced into a hasty defense. Had Reno three days to prepare the position and had a company of combat engineers, then leaving that timber in place limiting his fields of fire, and preventing infiltration, would have been decidedly unwise. In short you take what you are given, and play the hand you are dealt.

NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE. ANYTHING AND ANYWHERE CAN BE CLEARED. You just need the wherewithall to do it.

Mike I am not all that sure how effective Indian attempts to set the brush on fire was. I have heard they did, but know no details, and I can never recall discussing it here or on the other boards beyond the mention of it. What I do know is that a good many of Reno's people stayed in that woods for up to twenty four hours. .

[Deleted]

I do have the McElresh Map for both LBJ and Gettysburg I like that map and that is how I decided where Otter Creek is on a modern map.

I am not sure either, but it would be a concern to me. I don't know how dry the area would be since it is right up against the river. It had not rained recently apparently. The fire may have burned out due to lack of fuel, plus the Indians all pretty much ran after Reno when he broke out. That probably helped the survivors. And I guess the Indians were not overly concerned with clearing the woods after Reno left.

[quincannon]

It's too bad the McElfresh does not have grid lines. Otherwise I find it an invaluable tool.

Don't recall every seeing any weather data for the last half of June 76. It may not exist. It was hot though. Then there is that snow squall Custer ran into on his way to LBH. Wonder if it snowed in the valley too.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I find the artwork, which is good, hinders my ability to read the map itself.

They don't mention rain that I recall, although I think it sprinkled that night.

[deadwoodgultch]

Jason Pitsch owns or owned the orange bldg depicted on your map. Jason just got out of prison, recently, he was busted for child porn.

The timber occupied was to the right of Reynolds marker, Indians near, unnamed white marker adjacent to the road south of Reynolds marker, also pretty much behind the orange bldg. Don't recall Indian names, though I think Cheyenne, maybe Limber Bones, been a while.

What you have circled is where Chuck's favorite, Bill Rini claims it is.

Regards,
Tom

[quincannon]

So it comes down to the dispute between a convicted child porn afictionado, and someone who spanks his unruly students with a dog brush in the back of his van, then perjures himself. Jesus H Christ, what goddamned lovely world we live in.

[herosrest]

I'll try and pull some of the stuff I have flown over during studying all this stuff. It is what it is. The now unused red building 'should' be about center on the map Here Pick up the little yellw man figure in the bottom right of the page and drag him to the blue 90 shield and that gives street view. You can see the building, the valley and change view through the compass, and travel along and back I-90 for views.

The building is about 450 yards from the GO (Garryowen) loop.

There seem to have been fairly large anniversaries at 40, and 45 years, besides the 1926 extravaganza. These coincided with early film making and sure enough there is a Custer/LBH film in maybe 1917. There were several, with the footage and new footage being reworked and re-scripted. 

Dec 21, 2017 16:42:20 GMT herosrest said:

Link William Wildschut photograph collection images of the 45th Annual Battle of the Little Big Horn Re-enactment.



Quite special.

Brilliant. Smithsonian like pretty much everything, upddates, upgrades, re-indexes and dead links everywhere - hopeless clowns. It's link which is 45th anniversay, so 1921.  Where 22 photos were a click away, now I haven't got a clue what they've done other than employ a bunch of people who don't understand what they are doing. Pretty ticked off, 'cos............ why?

There was a re-enactment of fighting and last stand all over hills along the river and as best I figured out, this was down towards the monument and superintendents stone house. What interested me was a cinema camera filming the action. So this was a part of the scene making for a film about the battle. I'm sorry about this, but I just wanted to link, and link, bits and bobs so anyone interested could at least get an idea what i'm on about, and instead i'm hunting here and there for stuff i'd already found and idiots somewhere for no good reason - move it, hide, loose it - because they haven't got a clue and don't care. It's not impossible to to code the back links into these mega IT projects, which ultimately are just lipstick jobs tarting stuff up for a pat on the back. I'll meet one of these guys one day - it won't end well.

Train of thought.......... Dolly Parton? No.......... Keira Knightley.... erm, oh of course it's Léa Hélène Seydoux-Fornier de Clausonne.

Cultural depictions of Custer and the first 7 films we know of,

Custer's Last Fight (1912) - with Francis Ford as Custer.

Colonel Custard's Last Stand (1914) - with Lloyd Hamilton as Colonel Custard.

Britton of the Seventh (1916) - with Ned Finley as Custer.

Bob Hampton of Placer (1921) - with T. D. Crittenden as Custer.

Wide Open Spaces (1924) - with Al Forbes as Custer.

The Flaming Frontier (1926) - with Dustin Farnum as Custer.

General Custer at Little Big Horn (1926) - with John Beck as Custer.

The 1926 anniversary was filmed in parts but what was going on? Record of the event, or scene making production, both or two entirely seperated in time events. No one knows but what can be said is that 7th Cavlry marched the return route from Ford as it is presented in modern theory, in 1926 and 50,000 chattering fans watched this and went away with that impression in their minds. One of them was John Stands in Timber.

[herosrest]

Right. Click content on the SI page..... woo. woooo blbbb''' ding............ plop........


Look at this... WOW - The Red Barron attacking Crow Agency link 

In my inimitable way, I'm reinforcing the point QC made. NO one knows. Absolutely no-one.

In relation to the Reno ditch and the irrigation canal dug in 1925 which feeds into what is now called Otter creek, the creek did not inhibit the advance in the valley which followed retreating Indian pony herds.* Sight of the village as Reno reached the Garryowen riverloop brought him up shortas it sprawled across the entire valley ahead. He could not see it, until reaching the Garryowen loop. He could not see through the treeline. He was not superman. He expected 380 tipis at most and found 1,200 stretched right across the valley. That's why he halted his advance.

Reno did not charge the treeline, he was pursuing a retreating dust cloud thrown up by Sioux ponies. The Sioux pony herders did not run the animals into the riverloop they cleared it and took the ponies......

* OK - question. Where did the herd of ponies retreating ahead of Reno, go?

We could alternately discuss stampedeing a herd into the camp.

I was actually looking forward to a Nat. Geo film about the battleship Musashi, found on the sea bed and modelled in 3D to investigate what happened to an unsinkable battleship. It's fascinating. The Japanes experts seem to think that a torpedo strike impact, popped rivets holding a massive armored bath tub structure designed to be impenetrable to gunfire. It was hot riveted because the structure was too thick to weld. Unbelievable. 

The Otter Ck. discussion is a red-herring from wannabe this, not that. It's entirely false concept. The halt was at Garryowen, as the men who fought there have said.