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Post by quincannon on Feb 9, 2022 3:55:41 GMT
Don't know if it happened exactly that way Mac, but I figure it's pretty darn close.
All three were experienced aggressive combat leaders, far better than any among those they opposed. Of the three though Gall probably took the most critical actions that led to the then inevitable outcome. Blocking the way south was the critical move that put Custer in check, then checkmate. You could have attacked Custer from the north and west all day long, but the decisive factor was blocking a southward exit. I do not believe Custer knew that the way south was blocked. Therefore, I conclude that he never went to Ford B, or anywhere near it, for by doing so and being repulsed from that place would insure that the southward route as a means of withdrawal would be a non-starter, and he would know it.
Newton's Third Law states that for every action there is a reaction. Action at B, insures reaction that would block any means of escape southward.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 10, 2022 1:25:04 GMT
Hello, all. I'm loosely following along the topic and wonder that you seem unaware of Little Hawk a Cheyenne head banger who banged heads. For unexplainables (unexplained reasons) he's difficult to connect with Two Moons but that is trivial. The first attack on Crook with supposedly 200 warriors who shot expedition's camp as led by him. It was LH who then discovered Crook's advance up Rosebud, carried the news back to the camp on the forks of Reno Ck. and led the force of warriors who kicked the stuffing out Crook at the big bend in Rosebud. He walloped into Custer's command at Lima Bravo Hotel.
He is not particularly well known but was an equal or first after, Crazy Horse. He participated in a mounted attack nee pursuit of Custer's command.
Many with an interrst in the tactical fight know of him but don't really. Crazy Horse's equal.
Hope all are well
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Post by quincannon on Feb 10, 2022 3:30:46 GMT
HR: I take issue with "kick the stuffing". My impression is that it was pretty much a draw, as far as the tactical part of the issue is concerned. The operational part, forcing Crook to withdraw, though was a clear cut, chalk up a win for the feathered guys
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Post by herosrest on Feb 10, 2022 16:03:45 GMT
Crook was aggressive. Bite your nose and not let go.
Corrected - Persistently aggressive.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 10, 2022 18:09:47 GMT
Oh HR, I quite agree about Crook's aggressiveness. The question though is not if Crook was aggressive, but if Crook got the stuffing knocked out of him on the Rosebud. I would argue no. He possessed the ground the battle was fought at the close of day. He withdrew in good order to his base, because the ammunition he had expended was so depleted that any further advance without first resupplying was impossible.
I do not give Crook high marks, or even a passing grade, for this mid-June adventure. I do give the Indians high marks though for a beautifully executed spoiling attack. Very high marks indeed, but the subject was stuffing, not Crook's, or the Indian's report card.
Let me refer you to "On The Border With Crook" by his aide John Bourke if you have not already read it, for an overall appraisal of Crook. My impression of Crook, after reading that book, one of my favorites, several times over the years, is that when Crook moved north against the Sioux, after campaigning successfully against the Apache, he was behind a tactical and operational learning curve. The operational parameters of a campaign against the Sioux were much different than those employed against the Apache. If I had to put it in modern terms, I would say that with the Apache he was fighting a true insurgency, while the Sioux presented more similarity to a conventional war . Not a totally accurate statement on my part, but close enough for you to get my meaning.
Regardless, the three men this thread concerns itself with, and others not mentioned, were top notch combat commanders, and far superior to those in the field arrayed against them. Crook was a quick study as his later performance indicated, but the combat leaders of the Sioux and Cheyenne had no peer until Mackenzie, and Miles showed up.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 11, 2022 0:17:22 GMT
One thing for sure Crook had enough ammo to go hunting and fishing for over a month. Can't blame him, the Big Horn mountains and Goose Creek were loaded with game and fish! Should have mentioned he was going on vacation.
Regards,
Tom
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Feb 11, 2022 0:32:43 GMT
Hello, all. I'm loosely following along the topic and wonder that you seem unaware of Little Hawk a Cheyenne head banger who banged heads. For unexplainables (unexplained reasons) he's difficult to connect with Two Moons but that is trivial. The first attack on Crook with supposedly 200 warriors who shot expedition's camp as led by him. It was LH who then discovered Crook's advance up Rosebud, carried the news back to the camp on the forks of Reno Ck. and led the force of warriors who kicked the stuffing out Crook at the big bend in Rosebud. He walloped into Custer's command at Lima Bravo Hotel. He is not particularly well known but was an equal or first after, Crazy Horse. He participated in a mounted attack nee pursuit of Custer's command. Many with an interrst in the tactical fight know of him but don't really. Crazy Horse's equal. Hope all are well Great to have you onboard HR (must be duck season). You are correct about Little Hawk and his participation. At LBH he was in the valley fight probably with Crazy Horse, and he returned with CH to the village and up to the position opposite Calhoun Hill with Gall and Crazy Horse. He seems to have then stayed at Calhoun Hill and taken part in the fighting there.
Interestingly he mentions that he saw Chief Comes in Sight there; significant in that it was Chief Comes in Sight who was rescued by his sister at the Rosebud battle. "The Battle where the girl saved her brother". Cheers
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Post by rollingthunder on Feb 11, 2022 13:32:55 GMT
One thing for sure Crook had enough ammo to go hunting and fishing for over a month. Can't blame him, the Big Horn mountains and Goose Creek were loaded with game and fish! Should have mentioned he was going on vacation. Regards, Tom Sports fans will never change |
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Post by quincannon on Feb 11, 2022 14:28:32 GMT
Hunting and fishing aside, I think the relative information that needs to be considered is what were Crook's scouts doing during this period of relative inactivity. If they were not doing what the Indians were certainly doing - scouting - preparing the battle space - then there would be every right to be highly critical of Crook during this period of days and weeks.
Americans by their very nature are impatient. Patience and preparation, are by far better than haste and waste.
Looking at this campaign overall, all the players on the Army side, apparently did not know B from a bull's ass about how to fight Indians on the Northern Plains. It was much like wandering around the countryside on a sightseeing tour bus, rather than a serious, professionally led, expedition to insure that objectives were met. To that end, reconnaissance, scouting, and battle space preparation, is 95 percent of what needs to be accomplished, with five percent or less of the activity devoted to battle itself.
The more time and effort you spend FINDING and FIXING, the easier the FIGHTING and FINISHING becomes.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 11, 2022 16:52:42 GMT
QC. Crook understood the value of relentless opposition against a non-military enemy. Miles went about the Plains conflict in similar fashion.
He let go and walked away. He did not make any attempt to further scout the enemy backyard.
He pulled back to resupply with ammunition. Ee know he was happy to risk running out of food on campaign.
I think we can call this a draw. I wondered whether his cavalry carried sabres at Rosebud. Infantry had their pig stickers I assume but was the giving up of the cavalry sword a general order or unique to 7th Cavalry? (If you know)
The view you have expressed is realistic and echoes what Reno wrote privately to Sheridan on the July 4th. Highly ctritical of equals and peers on the expedition.
The flip side or coigne is the simple difficulties of operating and scouting in that terrain. Bradley did it and did it wellbut boy oh boy was his a charmed life.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 11, 2022 17:04:21 GMT
Hello, all. I'm loosely following along the topic and wonder that you seem unaware of Little Hawk a Cheyenne head banger who banged heads. For unexplainables (unexplained reasons) he's difficult to connect with Two Moons but that is trivial. The first attack on Crook with supposedly 200 warriors who shot expedition's camp as led by him. It was LH who then discovered Crook's advance up Rosebud, carried the news back to the camp on the forks of Reno Ck. and led the force of warriors who kicked the stuffing out Crook at the big bend in Rosebud. He walloped into Custer's command at Lima Bravo Hotel. He is not particularly well known but was an equal or first after, Crazy Horse. He participated in a mounted attack nee pursuit of Custer's command. Many with an interrst in the tactical fight know of him but don't really. Crazy Horse's equal. Hope all are well Great to have you onboard HR (must be duck season). You are correct about Little Hawk and his participation. At LBH he was in the valley fight probably with Crazy Horse, and he returned with CH to the village and up to the position opposite Calhoun Hill with Gall and Crazy Horse. He seems to have then stayed at Calhoun Hill and taken part in the fighting there.
Interestingly he mentions that he saw Chief Comes in Sight there; significant in that it was Chief Comes in Sight who was rescued by his sister at the Rosebud battle. "The Battle where the girl saved her brother". Cheers
Hi. By all accounts Comes in Sight was up to his usual tricks and making bravery runs. The guys who did it seem to have run along skirmish lines rather than straight at them so although gutsy, it wasn't as daft as might seem. Regards. |
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Post by quincannon on Feb 11, 2022 17:14:54 GMT
HR: An Infantryman without a bayonet, is called a Boy Scout. That may seem silly to most in this modern age, but there is something about the bayonet on the end of any rifle you carry, be it musket or modern rifle, that strikes fear in your opponent. That by itself gives you an advantage over them.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 11, 2022 17:59:21 GMT
Chuck, your 4 F's are certainly to the point and not nearly as the classless as the ones spouted about in my youth.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by quincannon on Feb 11, 2022 18:11:46 GMT
My Four F's are biblical if you are a soldier. The key though are not the F's themselves, but how you adapt and apply them to any given situation. Finding and Fixing is they key. Do it right, with patience, and attention to even the smallest detail, and the Fighting and Finishing are a comparative walk in the park. If your mantra is - Never Give a Sucker an Even Break, the hard part is in insuring that none of the breaks are available to him in the first place. That takes patience.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 12, 2022 2:15:50 GMT
QC
It is never usually a perfect world and whilst it is helpful going on wonderful, to have all the jelly nailed up neat and tidy and have your opponent doing what you want them to, when does that ever happen. If your opponent has no ammo they cannot fight. That is airforce and navy work today. In 1876 after the summer campaign, the horses were taken away and where ever Miles or Crook learnt their enemy were, off they went slogging and racing catch up. Find and firk. Just do it credo.
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