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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2021 20:17:24 GMT
I think this better describes a unit in reserve rather than in support. Again, to be in support, you have to be able to see and be within range of the supported unit. So, artillery, with its Forward Observers today can be in support even though they might 1000 or more meters from the troops they are supporting. Prior to the invention of the telephone and radio and the concept of indirect Fire Support, Artillery was basically on the forward line of troops because they could not adjust fire. They could be on ground providing visibility of both the troops and the objective on which they were firing, but they had to SEE it and were providing Support By Fire with Direct Fire. Regardless if you think they are in support or reserve, the Commander has to be in a position to both see the forward troops and be able of communicating with the rearward troops. This (could be)/is portrayed in the movie Gettysburg in which in Picketts' charge you see the artillery firing on the Union line from long range while Pickett and the others are in a tree line behind them and on the Union position, the guns are right up with the troops, some of which are laying down to reduce their exposure to enemy fire and to avoid having their heads shot off by their own artillery. in your wargames, do you allow one unit that is 500 yards away from the supported unit to fire through another unit that is 250 yards away from the supported Unit? Unless the unit 500 yards away is on an elevation or has othewise unobstructed LOS, I don't call that support, I call in friendly fire. Enemy <----- Supported Unit <----- 1st Unit <----- 2nd Unit VS <----- 2nd Unit Enemy <----- Supported Unit <----- 1st Unit
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2021 0:03:47 GMT
It occurred to me Custer's supposed flanking attack as some think Custer was doing is not about providing Reno support. In theory it was meant as a Hammer and Anvil attack but in practice, Reno wasn't an anvil and Custer wasn't Charles Martel. Had he explained it to Reno it may have been a little more successful, but I don't think his plan had gelled when he detached Benteen and then decided to send Reno after the fleeing Indians. He still didn't have enough information. Coming up on Reno's left may have been the best of nothing but bad choices...
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Post by quincannon on Oct 20, 2021 0:25:42 GMT
It will come as no surprise that I disagree (a little).
In the Rini fantasia that Ian describes, it is only fantasia because Rini does not understand (fully) what the word support means. A mile or two that separates the elements of the total force, may not under all circumstances prohibit the term SUPPORT being used correctly. Like everything else it depends upon the circumstances of the type of support being rendered. In the world of Rini, support means that one force can provide direct fire support to another, or that each of the two elements in question may coordinate their own fires to mutually benefit each of those forces. In this Rini is correct, but his expectations of the lack of limitations on the direct fire support means then available, are as fantastic as Cinderella's glass slipper. Rini lives in his own world, and I for one would just as soon keep that world confined to where it is, his mama's basement.
Rini's fantastic delusions aside, support can be rendered tactically in a number of ways. I will list just one that comes to mind immediately as an example.
Company A is attacking on an axis Manitou Springs to Woodland Park, an east west axis. Ute Pass is the only route between the two towns. The enemy is entrenched in platoon strength in the village of Green Mountain Falls. Company B of the same battalion, airmobiles to Woodland Park and sets up a blocking position. A distance of ten statute miles separates Company A's attacking echelon, from the blocking position established by Company B. Under these circumstances Company B could rightly be said to be in support of Company A by blocking the only avenue of escape for the enemy force located between them.
You are in SUPPORT when your actions materially effect, and render assistance to the efforts and actions of another.
Get your Shell Oil map of Colorado out if you want to see what I just said on paper.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2021 0:55:23 GMT
I visualize your operation and I understand your point of view. Company B is still providing the Anvil to CO A's Hammer. in my little world, CO B is conducting a supporting attack while CO A is making the Main Attack.
We did the same type thing at the NTC. My brigade (I was the 4) consisted at the time of two TANK-MECH TF and a Lighi Infantry Battalion from Alaska. we also had OPCON of the Division's Aviation Brigade and a bunch of other crap. We did an airmobile assault of the Whale with the infantry and the two battalions attacked abreast. The S-3 thought the two battalions would take over an hour to get to the Whale and I was concerned about casualties among the first lift and wanted the lift battalion to lift out the casualties after they dropped the 2nd lift. The S-3 refused telling me it wasn't his mission. This erupted into quite a fight and I ended up screaming at the AVN BDE CDR who also told me no way. After some terse comments, my Commander took him aside and the XO walked me out of the command post.
It turned out, the armor got to the Objective before the 2nd lift arrived. I also has a forwrd logistics element tucked up close behind the battalions with heavy medical support.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 20, 2021 2:43:50 GMT
True enough, but you and I, along with Colt, are probably the only ones here that would see it that way initially. Keeping in mind that you have spent time here, and may be familiar with the terrain involved, that is not universal among our members or the people who read, what the great unwashed on other boards consider no better than a electronic fish wrapper. The terrain is miserable, and only those familiar with the idea of what support actually is could make a supporting attack out of it. You in fact know what I described. Those, who only read my written description, or look at a map and pin point the locations specified, would never consider it as such.
These are the reasons for my statement that SUPPORT is anything that materially effects and assists the efforts and actions of another. Distance may effect that aid being rendered, but distance alone does not preclude it.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 20, 2021 10:26:14 GMT
I fully understood you from the get go Chuck, you used all the assets available to a modern mechanised army. The ability to drop a company to the enemies rear would be two fold, #1 it prevents the enemy platoon escaping after you wrinkle them out of their positions in the pass, #2 it can also prevent the enemy re-enforcing the pass or launching a counter attack.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 20, 2021 10:35:37 GMT
I can just see the commander of your B Company, after being dropped behind the lines and holding a strategic area behind the pass, I can just visual Richard Todd saying to his self “hold until relieved” and his radio operator repeating the line “ham and jam” into his radio.
You can be Peter Lawford leading your men through the pass and marching to the sound of bagpipes
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Post by quincannon on Oct 20, 2021 11:08:56 GMT
Yes Ian, it's just another day at the office and has been since Leonidas held the pass at Thermopylae waiting for the rest of those Greeks to show up.
I rather like the idea of playing the Peter Lawford role of Lord Lovat, especially the sweater and pipes. In my case though it was a harmonica and long underwear.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 20, 2021 16:40:07 GMT
Will someone please tell that poor fellow Bill over in Dianeland to come over here and ask the same question about routes of retreat and north-south battle flow. If our discussion and answers are satisfactory to him, perhaps he will stay awhile.
First of all there was no north-south battle flow. The flow was and remains northward ---- PERIOD. What they have named N-S Flow, is actually like a bucket of paint being thrown at a brick wall. Most of the paint's forward thrust is stopped by the wall, but some splashes back toward the thrower by the force of the impact. If anyone calls that splash back flow, I think they should check their plumbing. That is what happened with the Custer battalion. Nothing complicated, just the application of common sense to battle analysis.
Then there is the matter of retreating southward. Eastward was the ONLY direction that could have possibly been successful. WE, US, YOUINS know that, but there is no reason to believe Custer or any of his company commanders knew that, or they would not have gone south or attempted to. They would have gone east. The Indians were streaming across Fords B, C, and D. Again we know that, and Custer surely would know about C and D. He could see those locations. So why again did his people go south? Because they did not know about B, which in turn is an indication of not having gone there, or anywhere near it.
Colt tried his best over there, and fought the fight of ONLY THE VALIANT. In fact from now on I will consider him Prince Valiant. Unfortunately he was surrounded by the walking dead of mind. Somebody give Bill a PM jingle, please.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 20, 2021 19:32:49 GMT
I will ask him later, that being said we actually got on the news today link
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Post by quincannon on Oct 20, 2021 19:41:57 GMT
I trust you, your family, and property are OK?
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 20, 2021 19:45:44 GMT
Yes thanks Chuck, that took place about three miles away from our house, but all I saw was heavy rain. I have sent Bill a nice PM, hope he likes it.
I see Bob is still going strong, this guy must have very deep pockets link
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Post by quincannon on Oct 20, 2021 22:30:23 GMT
Yes, he must.
The problem with that M48, is that it is an M48A2 and it was only being used by the National Guard during Vietnam, while the 48's that went to Vietnam are all A3's. Not much different but the differences are significant and noticeable. All the Monogram Armor is 1/32 scale, and it looks quite odd when you show it beside a 1/35 scale.
Valentine progresses. Very nice kit.
I am glad you only got rain. I have seen a tornado knock the front off of a brick house, and leave the two houses on either side untouched.
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mac
Brigadier General
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Post by mac on Oct 22, 2021 10:40:48 GMT
BATAAN. Mac: I don't know the answer to you questions. I can only offer an opinion. If Custer meant I will support you by my actions, then I suspect that Custer had either one of two things in mind. 1) The most obvious is "follow and support" by coming up on Reno's left flank, after Reno's battalion had fully or partially developed the situation. Apparently this is what Reno thought he meant as indicated by several statements made by Reno battalion participants. 2) Launch the intended main attack from a position on the bluffs, crossing the river above the village and enveloping that village from the rear. In that instance Reno would be the supporting attack, and Custer the main effort. That would be a completely reasonable course of action had the village been smaller, and the tribal circles spaced out for some distance as they normally were, apparently. I think that spacing ended and a new normal began when the Indians discovered that single tribal circles were very vulnerable when separated in time and space, as illustrated by Reynolds attack on 17 March. As a result the circles were not separated, and the intended crossing point was blocked, making the whole idea of Custer launching his attack from the intended place moot. At that point Reno was hanging out on an unsupported limb, and the only support he would receive in the valley was from what he had at hand. You see some of this played out in the note. Had the village been of anticipated size the words "big village" would have been unnecessary. It's sort of like going on a date with you favorite girl, and discovering you forgot to put on your pants as you reached her front doorstep. Concur but.....I think Custer intended to be the main effort by re entering the valley at Ford B and Reno had then become the supporting effort (not that Reno knew this). However, when Custer got there, he realized the “Big Village” prevented him from crossing. Consequently, he was forced to support Reno by sending the recall message to Benteen. In the end it was Benteen’s arrival that saved what was left of Reno’s command.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 22, 2021 14:29:44 GMT
Hi Mac.
Custer must have knowed that the Indians would and have, gone to block Reno, he may have also known that Reno was in position skirmishing, thus Custers intervention would shock these blocking Indians to thinking that they were going to be hit from behind and forcing them to release their blocking mission thus allowing for Reno and maybe Benteen to continue advancing.
By this time, Custer was planning that he would be way north and heading for the softer targets.
To me it all sounds like "surprize and confusion, "shock and speed", but the Indians were not that shocked and reacted faster and in greater numbers.
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