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Post by yanmacca on Apr 29, 2021 9:48:49 GMT
The idea of a single company or large detail, would be a good idea under the circumstances, Custer didn't know the ground, Bouyer would have a good idea, but any crossing point would have to be assessed first. The area where this building lies may well be a crossing point used by the Indians, maybe they herded their ponies across it daily, but it still needed checking out before any large body of cavalry could use it.
Having a company to skirt the river, is also a reason for Custer to be unsure about the area and by sending a company to skirt the river, would be the quickest way to find any likely fords.
Going back to this being the case at ford B, well no, I think that any foray to this ford would be to draw any remaining village defenders to this spot, which would give the main body the time to strike elsewhere at a more remote and undefended spot, whether or not Reno could also benefit from this foray I don’t know, maybe it was twofold.
I think that the idea of drawing warriors to a point which you have recently left is a good tactic, it keeps you one step ahead of your enemy, deceiving and then outmaneuvering foot soldiers by using your mobility. Your main body could be behind battle ridge heading north while your enemy is flocking to stop you at an empty ford.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Apr 29, 2021 12:33:50 GMT
That location makes all kinds of sense. Does not solve any problems though. The rest of the battalion could be either or, and that location represents only one company which I expect it does. Either/Or goes back to an early conversation on one of these threads: One company at that location could mean the entire battalion was near by, say to the west intending to cross the river at or near the present highway and railroad overpass. One company at that location may also mean they were sent there as a flank guard for the remainder of the battalion, which intended to cross further northwest near that Sage Motel sire that Tom and Steve mentioned some time ago. In that instance this location may represent that flanking companies mission to flush out anyone skulking in the timber along the river, much the same as Reno had that flanking party skirting the timber along the river as he moved northward. In that instance that may be the answer to those Indian tales of - Custer got to the river - Custer never got to the river. Under that circumstance both would be completely correct. Additionally if that unit in question that was near Steve's old house was Company E, then it is perfectly logical they would move back to the western slope of Cemetery Ridge. I agree, Chuck. I think it is likely that other companies moved closer to 212 by following BRE. There are reports of activity near the old Sage Motel. Those two disappearing markers were down closer to 212. There are family accounts of returning hunting party coming from the Hardin area, and they engaged in that area north of BRE. As far as the old foundation, it is along a road leading to the old entrance road. There are artifacts of cavalry movement discovered in the construction of the roadbed. If I recall correctly, one company lost their horses and moved on foot up to CR. There is also an Indian artifact (cases) site right on the park boundary, and it has a clear view of the old stone house. If you look at the map that Ian posted to the east and north, you see a drainage. It is called Gibbons crossing, and the picture of the Kellogg marker is just to the east of that drainage. Regards Steve
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Post by yanmacca on May 15, 2021 12:30:20 GMT
Got it! you can still see it in relation to the road and river.
Mac here is the location.
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Post by herosrest on May 21, 2021 15:38:33 GMT
Got it! you can still see it in relation to the road and river. I've got some data related to the old house seen these days by foundations and commented in the topic. I got into a thing with the post battle mapping and laying out of boundaries by Sgt. James. E. Wilson before he took up his commision link . I have long admired the map and eventually got its story - hurrah. I link it here, Wilson Map - zoom into the river at the Sioux Ford and area where the house remains are. Notice the river. This was no mickey mouse survey. What you see is what was there in July 1879. Enjoy. I'm looking for Wilson's personal history but no luck yet. It's a common famous name. Camp Wilson
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Post by quincannon on May 21, 2021 20:08:15 GMT
Good find HR.
I love those old period photos. Hell, I remember when it was taken. Phil Sheridan and I watched the photographer when he was taking the picture.. In fact I remember telling Phil at the time that the Army needed more pictures taken, just so we can illustrate our autobiographies.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2021 11:46:25 GMT
Got it! you can still see it in relation to the road and river I've got some data related to the old house seen these days by foundations and commented in the topic. I got into a thing with the post battle mapping and laying out of boundaries by Sgt. James. E. Wilson before he took up his commision link . I have long admired the map and eventually got its story - hurrah. I link it here, Wilson Map - zoom into the river at the Sioux Ford and area where the house remains are. Notice the river. This was no mickey mouse survey. What you see is what was there in July 1879. Enjoy. I'm looking for Wilson's personal history but no luck yet. It's a common famous name. That's a wonderful map and far above anything I could aspire to, but as a tool without a scale it is somewhat lacking. I have trouble reading the titles of the few things that have them. Nonetheless, paired with another map it would be most instructive. Color me stupid, but I don't get the fascination with the house. It wasn't there in 1876. While it is an interesting point it appears to lack historical significance to the battle. I could use some englightenment.
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Post by mac on May 22, 2021 13:01:40 GMT
Mike AZ and Tom have information from their Indian contacts that the house area is where the battle began in the North. They may enlarge on that here. Cheers
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2021 14:35:30 GMT
Mike AZ and Tom have information from their Indian contacts that the house area is where the battle began in the North. They may enlarge on that here. Cheers
OIC.
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Post by azranger on May 22, 2021 18:00:37 GMT
Fort Custer is in Hardin MT my friends owned it and they hold an annual shoot there with period correct firearms. The Fort Custer General Store is now the THE FARMER'S DAUGHTER GENERAL STORE & SODA FOUNTAIN. My friend Landa runs the store. Her grandfather has breakfast at the Lariat quite often I am sure we will see them. Last year I was invited to a High School graduation on their farm. A great time and no masks. www.thefarmersdaughtergeneralstore.com/#/Regards Steve
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Post by azranger on May 22, 2021 18:44:05 GMT
Tom had asked me last year to look around the Sage Motel and I did. I also went to location of Willy Bend's house. It is not a bend in the river. Bend is his last name. Just recently a Real Bird married a Bend.
So the connection to this area that there was a returning Cheyenne hunting party that were coming back form the Hardin area. They made contact with soldiers in that area. I believe American Horse (Cheyenne) gives an account consistent with what we have heard.
This April I was on the battlefield with Cheyenne, Sioux, Arapaho, and Crow at different times. I think there seems to be more Southern Cheyenne there than what we have heard in the past. The Arapaho were there with the Cheyenne. There are names for at least 20 Arapaho that were there. There were Southern Cheyenne Dog Soldiers there.
If you are interested in this than Gordon Harper's eBook is a great help.
What I know should be coming out in a book soon by Tom and my friend. We have hung out several times with these authors.
Our friend Will Hutchison will be at the Bismark ND LBHA meeting and he may be going to the battlefield like we are afterward. He got to photograph the collection at the battlefield before it went to Tucson. If you don't have his Artifacts Of the Battle Of Little Big Horn maybe knowing where he took the pictures would help you make a decision. He set up in visitor center where they run the videos. The NPS has all the photos including those he did not use.
Also coming this year will be George Kush if they open the Canadian border.
I can tell you right now that all rooms are booked in Hardin and Tom and I will be camped out at a KOA. Should be a great year to visit and next year even better.
I am so ready to get out of town.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on May 22, 2021 19:20:07 GMT
Here is an account made by American Horse:
Reno's troops crossed the river and got up on the hill. Just as the troops got on the hill, the Indians saw a big pack train of mules coming, which met Reno there. The Indians all stopped at the river; they did not try to cross, but turned back to look over the dead for plunder, and to see who of their own people was killed. While they were doing this, they heard shooting and calling down the river-a man calling out that the troops were attacking the lower end of the village. Then they all rushed down below and saw Custer coming down the hill and almost at the river. I was one of the first to meet the troops and the Indians and the soldiers reached the flat about the same time. When Custer saw them coming, he was down on the river bottom at the river's bank. The troops fought in line of battle, and there they fought for some little time. Then the troops gave way and were driven up the hill. The troops fought on horseback all the way up the hill. They were on their horses as long as the horses lasted, but by this time the Indians had got all around them and they were completely surrounded.
Those [Indians] who were following behind picked up the guns and ammunition belts of the soldiers who had been killed, and [they] fought the troops with their own guns. Many of the belts picked up had no cartridges in them. The soldiers were shooting all the time, as fast as the Indians. There were so many Sioux and Cheyennes that the whole country seemed to be alive with them, closing in on the troops and shooting. They kept following them until they got to a high point, and by this time very few white men were left. Here they closed in on them, and in a moment all were killed. I think this ended about two or three o'clock.
After we had killed those on the hill, we discovered that there were some other white men who had gotten off. They were discovered by people down below, and were below, that is, downstream from the monument. They charged these and killed them all.
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Post by yanmacca on May 22, 2021 19:23:24 GMT
If this building marks the location of the first skirmish of the northern attack, then does it mean that the Custer battalion never made it as far as where the bridges are now?
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 23, 2021 13:26:08 GMT
Steve,tell George,if the Canadian border is closed to use our Southern border, anyone can cross there, no covid screening, or passport.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2021 14:44:11 GMT
If this building marks the location of the first skirmish of the northern attack, then does it mean that the Custer battalion never made it as far as where the bridges are now? The building by itself means nothing except it is a place that in retrospect is used as an easily identified spot to mark what could be the center of mass of elements of the 7th at a given time. It has the same relevance of someone's account saying "near where the monument is (now)" since the monument was not there at the time. Where was American Horse at the time he starts his narration? Was he near the Reno-Benteen BP? Did he rush north instantly? Does the fighting he describes mark where he met troops along Calhoun-Battle-Custer Hill Ridge? Or does it refer to some location near the building where he (others?) saw troops coming down to Ford D? What is the speed of information from an observer near Ford D to the Reno BP? Assumptions: It's about 5 straight line miles from the building to the Reno BP, to account for up, down, and a circutous path for a rider, lets say it is 7 miles. Horse gallops at 25 mph; without any delays that would take 16 - 17 minutes. He's shouting all the way and other's are relaying the information, so let's say it take 10 minutes for the information to get to the south. While individual Indians may react nearly instantly, it would probably take the group at least 10 minutes to respond (I once timed my dug in infantry's time to mount and report ready to move and it took them 30 minutes. They were not otherwise bothered during the exercise, so I don't think this is totally unreasonable.) If the group as a whole rides directly North, then they don't get to the area for 37 minutes since the messenger left. But wait! Some Indians went back to the village and called it a day, others went directly to the fight, and others went to the village, changed horses, prepared, and then moved to join the others. Let's say that takes 10 minutes. If Indians in the village have already been preparing and had their horses, not unreasonable, then they could have responded much faster, again perhaps within 10 minutes. But Indian reports indicate they were surprised both by Reno's attack as well as the appearance of Custer appearing from the North (where all good barbarians come from anyway.) So people are swarming and arriving near the battle scene anywhere from 37 - 60 minutes from the sighting of Custer. In this time, Custer has swung back from the Ford D area and has troops on or near Calhoun Hill and Last Stand Hill. They were not heavily pressured at that time, right? And if they were opposed near the river/ford (if we move accounts of a troop moving to the ford, perhaps testing it, and an officer being shot and falling in the ford, they are not fighting the 7th as they come down the hill toward the ford, but across the ford from the southern side of the river. Since he turned back toward LSH, we can infer he was repulsed in this location. If American Horse is near the Reno fight, then the troops are not being attacked as they are coming down to Ford D, but as they are moving into position vicinity Calhoun Hill, thus we have a meeting engagement. The area the building is a part of is relatively flat and the path of the river then (as I look at it here) makes for a reasonable ford location near the building. I stand by for views of people who have been there, know more about the speed of horse, how long it might take to prepare, and with vaster knowledge than I.
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Post by azranger on May 23, 2021 15:09:18 GMT
If this building marks the location of the first skirmish of the northern attack, then does it mean that the Custer battalion never made it as far as where the bridges are now? Ian Long before the Crow showed me where he learned of the battle from his relatives Tom and I had been to the same location. What is apparent when you are there is that you can't see toward the river until you reach that location. The Arapaho we met with in April also went to the same location. His relatives were camped with the Southern Cheyenne. The house foundation is not significant other than pinpointing a location. As far as the artifacts near Ford Ds I can not find that source but I know that I read it. Sometimes I wish I only had one book. The number of artifacts was not large. I think the important thing was presented by Colt 45 and Chuck long ago. What it would have looked like and how far they got are different of course. Regards Steve
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